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nakigoe-chan
Topic: Jack/Kate vs. Sawyer/Kate
In the early episodes of season one, there was really no contest. Sawyer was nothing but a jackass, and Kate and Jack had their own inside jokes and cute moments and chemistry. But then two things happened at the same time: Kate found out WHY Sawyer was a jackass, and the show's writers seemed to lose interest in Jack/Kate sexual tension. Sure, they had their cute moments, and angst, and plenty of interaction...but beyond rather forced obligatory moments, they seemed to have about as much chemistry as my socks. Sawyer and Kate, however, seemed to gain ground as the show went on...but not enough to provide clear indication that it would win out over Jack and Kate, chemistry or no. So which couple works better - on the island or off?

Off of the island is a toss-up. Jack has shown that he's willing to bring down his father because he believes he did wrong; I suspect he wouldn't help or join Kate were they to be rescued. On the other hand, Sawyer probably would - but they'd certainly be bad influences on one another.

Loyalty would be an issue in terms of all three on OR off the island - each has either cheated despite being married or gotten involved with someone they knew to be married.

On the island? Jack and Kate are (arguably) too different and Sawyer and Kate are (arguably) too similar. You can say "opposites attract," but Jack's sense of nobility and Kate's consistant dishonesty would mean a relationship saturated with distrust and guilt, respectively and justifiably. On the other hand, Kate's clear interest in Jack would (or does) promote jealousy and probably distrust in Sawyer, who seems more interested in Kate than she is in him. Sawyer and Kate both see too much darkness in themselves, and while this on some level lets them find comfort in one another, they both also see too much of their own painful pasts in the other.

#1 Feb 01st 2006, 2:54pm
ashhead
What I like about Kate/Sawyer as opposed to Kate/Jack is that with Skate, there is no pretence. Kate is herself with Sawyer, she isn't trying to hide the part of herself that Jack wants to fix. Sawyer accepts that part of her, but Jack see's it as being broken. Even though Jack might be right, I think it would be too easy for Kate to be with Jack. She'd be leaving that part of herself behind, and I really don't think she should do that. She's done terrible things, and they should weigh on her conscience. When she's with Sawyer, she has to be herself, and I think that's a harder thing for her, she has to admit who she is.

But most of it is personal preference, I never saw the chemistry between Kate and Jack. They clearly liked each other, but I saw the attachment as forming too quickly. They were frightened, and clutching on to someone they had bonded with, rather than as actually falling for each other. When Kate found out who Sawyer was, when she read the letter, I think she started to fall for him despite herself. And Sawyer clearly doesn't want to fall for anyone, but his attachment to Kate has deepened, and he seems to abandoned his attempts to get anyone else.

#2 Feb 25th 2006, 10:37am
lostwithfaraday
I think when Kate was reading the letter, it was more like she was really starting to understand and pity him rather than fall for him. I do think a part of her is attracted to him, but there is a part that's attracted to Jack too. The thing with Jack though, is that she doesn't feel like she deserves him, and that's why she's trying to hide so much of her past from him. It's the same with Sawyer. Even though he likes Kate, he doesn't want her to fall for him because he thinks he doesn't deserve anyone including Kate.
#3 Mar 10th 2006, 5:38pm
flight815surviver
I just think that Jack and Kate are too completly different and I never really felt much chemistry between them anyway. Jack could never understand her the way that Sawyer could only he doesn't want to so everyones pretty much screwed. But I think there deffiently something there skate-wise that you can't get from jate.
#4 Mar 13th 2006, 6:58am
Orlando's Hot Chick
But if anyone ever thought about it, Kate did admit her true feelings for Sawyer right before he woke up. She told him that she was really starting to fall for him. Personally, I will admit that I did see a Jack/Kate thing happening, but on the other hand I was rooting for the Sawyer/Kate thing. Jack will eventually end up with Ana Lucia and we all know it. It's just a matter of time, but the fact that Sawyer and Kate have more in common than Jack and her is also a value to look at. Kate is able to be her and not act scared with Sawyer like she does with Jack. So, I don't know about you, but I'm hoping for Kate to get with Sawyer and Jack and Ana Lucia to hook up.
#5 Mar 15th 2006, 2:23pm
spotpc
I agree with most of the things that are being said. But I don't agree that Kate believes she doesn't deserve love. That's Sawyer's problem. Kate knows that she deserves love. But she's very self-conscious about her past and wonders whether anyone will ever be able to accept that about her. In an early episode when she offered to tell Jack what she'd done, she was offering a connection. But he said it didn't matter what she'd done in the past. He didn't understand, you see. Kate's past is a very important part of her. It speaks to the very core of who she is. When Jack refused to hear that, he built a wall between himself and her. There was a little chemistry between Jack and Kate before but after that talk it wasn't the same.

Kate also had some chemistry with Sawyer at that time. And that relationship has only grown since then. She has some trouble because she hates it when he gets scared and tries to push her away. But he has never given her a reason to doubt that he would accept her past if she offered it. Unfortunatelly, there's the added complication of Sawyer reminding Kate of her abusive father. Her speach to him in the episode "What Kate Did" made that clear. It scares her that she's starting to love him and she wants to run away. That's why she kissed Jack. She was trying to force herself to love him instead, but it didn't work and she ran off horrified at what she'd done. After talking with Sawyer at the end, she felt better and things were going well. That is until Sawyer's military coup. She understands that he did it because he was feeling insecure, but she's upset that he used her like that. It might be a couple more episodes before they get back together.

#6 Mar 17th 2006, 6:58pm
lostwithfaraday
First of all, I don't think Jack refusing to hear Kate's past built a wall between them. Jack simply refused because he didn't want to make her feel like she had to share something that personal. I think if Kate was that adamant about telling him, she would have put up a better fight. The thing putting up a wall between them is Kate's unwillingness to tell him the truth. Before she really knew him, she offered to tell him what she did, but since she's gotten to know him better, she's fallen for him and doesn't want him to know, because she's afraid that it might taint his view of her.

I also think she ran away from Jack after she kissed him because she was overwhelmed and thought that he was too good for her. I think with Sawyer though, she'd be willing to tell him her past only because she knows he's done some rotten stuff too and that way she could actually break down the barrier between her and Sawyer and make him realize that he is way too ** himself. The thing is, Sawyer tries to push Kate away because he hates the fact that someone could actually feel something for him, and he hates it when pushing her away never works. I also think Kate unintentionally pushes Jack away by flirting with Sawyer all the time, and he already knows what it's like to love someone and lose her to someone else, but Jack hasn't really given her a straight answer that explains that so I think their both victims in their stupid "fight," but I still love 'em anyways.

#7 Mar 26th 2006, 10:23am . Edited Mar 26th 2006, 10:24am
spotpc
I agree that Jack didn't want to make her feel bad. He's a gentle guy and he didn't want to pressure her. He didn't KNOW he was doing something wrong by saying no. He didn't KNOW it was a test. I guess it was a misunderstanding. And on top of that, Kate has always felt on a certain level that he was too good for her. There would always be things about herself that she would want to protect him from. So in fact, she'll always be somewhat unwilling to tell him the truth. And I think she knows that. She also knows that she needs a relationship where she can share all of herself, where she doesn't have to be afraid. What's been eating her up inside all this time is having to keep secrets. She wants to be honest with someone. She wanted Jack to be that guy, because he represents the life she always wanted for herself. But it didn't work out the way she hoped. She and Jack will always be mismatched.

Of course, if she offered to tell her past to Sawyer, he'd lap it all up like devine nectar. That alone may not make him feel any better about himself. But what would help him is knowing that she thought he was worth the effort. His biggest problem is that he believes he's beyond redemption. Every time she makes the effort to reach out to him, he feels just a little bit lighter. If she told him the truth about her past, it wouldn't be to make him feel better. She would do it because, like I said, she needs to have an open and honest relationship with someone. She knows that she can have that with Sawyer. The problem is (and has always been) Wayne. The thing that scares her the most right now is ending up like her mother. She can see that as a definite possiblity if she chooses Sawyer. But she knows that he fits her better.

She's at a fork in the road of life. Down one road, she can see the life she's always wanted. A utopian existence with a great guy. But she would have to hide part of herself for the rest of her life. Down the other road, she can see a life she wanted to leave behind. A path full of trouble and heartache with a guy she has to keep on a short leash. But she could share her entire self there. So which one should she choose? What's more important to her?

#8 Mar 26th 2006, 1:08pm . Edited Mar 26th 2006, 1:11pm
lostwithfaraday
I think over time, Jack and Kate will only be drawn closer together (as will Sawyer and Kate.) But Kate will learn that Jack doesn't really think she's too good for him and that it's all in her head. I think eventually Kate will fully be able to trust Jack with her past. We also know Jack's hiding a lot from her, too, so it looks like they've both got some honesty issues to work out.
#9 Apr 07th 2006, 8:36pm
spotpc
Maybe you're right. Maybe eventually Kate will be able to share her past with Jack. But... will that be enough by then? She might end up marrying Sawyer before that happens. I hope, I hope, I hope.
#10 Apr 08th 2006, 1:46pm
hobbits on the island
don't get me wrong, i'm not taking sides, but has anyone noticed that whenever they have a review of what's going on (latest one being "reckoning"), its always tons of jate, hardly any skate? that bugs me. are they trying to give us a hint hint? or are they just messing with us?
#11 May 03rd 2006, 5:37pm
spotpc
The people who put together the clips must be Jaters. LOL
#12 May 06th 2006, 10:51am
IloveDeltoraQuest'Dylantoo'
I think that Kate and Sawyer are perfect for each other. They both had pretty screwed up pasts, but they don't deny it (Like how Jack denys Kates' past) I think that Kate tends to think of Jack as more of a friend you kow Emotional support. But Kate and Sawyer, it just works. They know what pain is and they can help each other. I don't hate Jack 'cos practicly everyone would be dead without him. I just think tha Kate and Sawyer are the perfect couple. I bet Jack and Ana will end up falling for each other but Ana will die or something like that. I mean How much pressure is he under. Everyone else would crack. There is also the fact that Jack makes a good leader and Kate would too. If Sawyer was leader he would be leading everyone off to war with the others. Not that he isn't cute 'cos i'd follow him to war anyday ^^. Anyway, thats just my humble opinion and it's not like we have a saw in the script (pity) Wouldn't that be awsome though? Being able to direct all the characters around however you like? I'd love it. ^^ Bye
#13 May 10th 2006, 5:32am
spotpc
Funny you should mention Kate being a good leader. In the original draft of the pilot script, Jack was going to be killed off when they went to the cockpit. And Kate was going to be the leader after that. So I guess the creators of the show agree with you there. But it was decided later that killing Jack would just ** people off so they let him live.
#14 May 10th 2006, 12:06pm
Rapunzel247
The thing is that Jack and Kate being together is too obvious. I mean, I guessed it from the moment I discovered them. Hence they throw in Sawyer and Ana Lucia to confuse the watcher.

I didn't watch all of the first series so this is based mostly on the second. I think that Jack has always had feelings for Kate but then this Ana Lucia walks in and he's not so sure any more. In the meantime, he's trying to take his mind off them both and take watch out for them at the same time. Kate clearly feels comfortable around Sawyer despite the fact he's so cold but he's softening, which is kind of a pity. I think (hope?) Sawyer will end up too proud/scared to admit he's fallen.

R.

#15 Jun 24th 2006, 6:12am
spotpc
But he's already admitted it. He may not remember it, but he told Jack he was in love with Kate. That means that he's accepted it in his mind already. Telling her is just the next step and it's only a matter of time before he takes it. Doing things that seem obvious hasn't been one of this show's hallmarks.
#16 Jun 24th 2006, 10:52am
flight815surviver
But he was completly delerious so he could've been talking about anyone. Although personally I think it was Kate.
#17 Jun 25th 2006, 6:43am
spotpc
Who else could it be? I mean, logically...
#18 Jun 27th 2006, 9:06am
Rapunzel247
Doing things that seem obvious hasn't been one of this show's hallmarks.

Exactly what I was getting at. I think SawyerKate is more likely given the shows record but I don't know. They might just be trying to make JackKate unobvious so that they can end up together. But that's just weird.

R.

#19 Jun 28th 2006, 12:38am
flight815surviver
Someone from his past. Considering the show, that's quite possible. Again dont know why I'm arguing this point cos I'm totally all for Skate.
#20 Jun 28th 2006, 7:09am
spotpc
You're playing devil's advocate. And let me just say that Sawyer himself made that theory impossible. During season 1, he and Kate had that game of "I Never" in which he clearly stated that he had never been in love. And before someone says that he lied, let me point out that if he was going to lie about that, he would also have lied about having worn PINK. So it seems to me the only explanation is that he was in love with Kate in season 2.
#21 Jun 28th 2006, 7:20pm
Rapunzel247
But he did lie. He was clearly in love with the girl he long conned in the flashbacks.

R.

#22 Jun 28th 2006, 7:43pm
spotpc
tsk tsk. He conned you too, I see. He was never in love with her. He might have thought she was a cute person, but she was more naive than she thought. He knew about the $60,000 the whole time. He told his partner he was in love with her so he would put more pressure on the transaction. That extra pressure gave Sawyer an excuse to separate the girl from her money. "Hide some of the money under the clothes and I'll take some to my partner while you run to the motel down the street and hide for a while." (Or something to that effect.) Yeah, whatever, LOL. As soon as she was gone, he nabbed all the money and ditched both the girl AND his partner. I have no doubt that he felt bad about having to do it that way. After all, his usual MO doesn't include promises like that. But the only thing he loved at that time was cold hard cash.
#23 Jun 29th 2006, 5:07am
Rapunzel247
tsk tsk back on you. Thing is he did regret doing it that way. Now, knowing Sawyer, he's not one to regret things so easily. What other explination that fond feelings could make him regret getting the cash he loved so much no matter how he did it?

R.

#24 Jun 30th 2006, 12:07am
spotpc
I'll grant you that she was different from his other marks. He was forced to get more involved with her than he would have liked. But that doesn't mean he was in love with her. If he had been in love with her, he wouldn't have told his partner. He would have just scrapped the job and gotten money somewhere else. The fact that he went through with the con indicates that he didn't feel that strongly about her. I guess he did like her. But there's a big difference between LIKE and LOVE. He LIKED whats-her-name, but he LOVES Kate. So he didn't lie before. This really is the first time he's been in love.
#25 Jun 30th 2006, 5:18am
Rapunzel247
You present an interesting arguement but each to their own. I'm not saying he isn't in love with Kate though.

R.

#26 Jun 30th 2006, 5:29am
flight815surviver
Have we not agreed that Sawyer holds back his love becasue he doesn't believe that he deserves it and the best way to stop anyone from loving him is to hurt everyone he loves and try to convince himself that he doesn't love them.
#27 Jul 01st 2006, 1:23pm
flight815surviver
And yes you're right i'm playing devils advocate, but i think all lost viewer r a little. I mean the majority of the audience have barely considered the possiblity, much less believed, that it was just a bloody plane crash. And I am part of that majority.
#28 Jul 01st 2006, 1:26pm
spotpc
I absolutely agree that Sawyer tries to chase everyone away. And not just because he doesn't believe he deserves love (though that is a major factor). For someone who has been on his own for so long, it's scary to think that he suddenly has a family who cares about him. He's been comfortable being alone and he convinced himself that he's happier that way. But now that he has people who love him and he's starting to love them too, he can't lie to himself anymore. He's completely terrified right now.

I have no doubt that the plane crash appears to be an accident (caused by Desmond no less). But maybe there really was some greater purpose in it. Or could it be that it's up to the characters to give it meaning?

#29 Jul 03rd 2006, 8:04am
flight815surviver
The charactors are the entire meaning of the show and I dont believe that a plane crash like that left them with only superficial injuries and that they all have these emotional issues. Although we do know that the others didn't cause it, at least not deliberatly.

You're totally right, Sawyer is terrified right now.

#30 Jul 04th 2006, 4:38am
spotpc
Are you among those who believe in the afterlife theory? Or the dream theory?
#31 Jul 04th 2006, 9:42am
flight815surviver
Neither, th e writers have confirmed they aint dead dreaming or in purgatory.
#32 Jul 04th 2006, 12:55pm
spotpc
On the one hand, that's a relief. It means they won't be taking the easy way out at the end. But on the other hand, it's actually more worrying. It means that all the bad things that have happened were real and that everyone who's died is really dead.
#33 Jul 05th 2006, 6:39pm
hobbits on the island
umm i have a question about the Long Con that was being discussed earlier.

i accept that Sawyer may have just LIKED the girl he conned, but to say the episode shows that he loves kate is a bit of a joke. isn't the whole thing about how he did the same thing to Kate? and then he grins and ses that even though everybody else hates him, Kate obviously doesn't.

#34 Jul 05th 2006, 8:31pm
spotpc
Ah, yes. He conned the entire camp and made Kate upset with him. But all that is good news. Yes, good news. You see, the reason Sawyer did all that was because he was terrified of letting people get close to him. Kate understood that, judging by what she said at the end of the episode. Because of that, he knows that he can't hide anymore. The story in the flashbacks of that episode was meant to highlight just how calculating he can be when he's trying to escape from human connection. Back then, he never let anybody know what was behind his mask, and so he was able to run away from anyone who started to care about him. But now he has someone who can see right through his mask to the core of who he is, someone he'll never be able to shake off. Believe it or not, I think that incident was an important step in his healing process.
#35 Jul 06th 2006, 6:31am
hobbits on the island
i kind of understood the whole tiger-don't-change-his-stripes deal, but the point i'm trying to get at is the situation doesn't really get him any closer to kate. like when she read the letter, she just comes to realize he's emotionally...screwed, kinda. perhaps that's why we all love him so much. oh, the joys of sawyer.
#36 Jul 06th 2006, 7:47pm
spotpc
It doesn't really get him any closer to her right away. But it will help him get over some of the issues that have been getting in his way. The more emotional problems he recognizes and tries to solve, the closer he CAN get to Kate. Of course, she also has alot of issues she needs to work out. It seems like they've both been trying to deal with their complexes and they'll eventually meet in the middle. At least, that's what I would like to see happen. In part, it's knowing how screwed up they both are that's attracting them to each other. A relationship based on the mutual licking of wounds is what they're heading for right now. And that's not a bad thing. They love each other, not despite their problems, but because of them. The reason Kate loves Sawyer is the same reason we love him.
#37 Jul 07th 2006, 5:01am
hobbits on the island
yes, but is it the same with jack/kate? any jaters wanna challenge that? hm?
#38 Jul 07th 2006, 4:30pm
flight815surviver
Jacks complex is Daddy issues that he is in deniel about. That's why we love Sawyer more. Anyway I'm confused now, didn't Sawyer con the camp to keep people from caring for him so he wasn't doing it to get closer to kate he was trying to push her away. Bless him he's so screwed lol but so's she.
#39 Jul 10th 2006, 11:37am
spotpc
Jack's issues are too common, IMHO. A lot of people have that "my dad didn't love me" thing going on. He's not in the same mental space as Kate and Sawyer and he knows that. I didn't think he was in denial but he just hadn't decided to deal with his problems yet.

Yeah, Sawyer tries to push everyone away, especially Kate since she scares him the most. He was trying to regress to his former loner state. But Kate's not that easy to chase off. If she wants to get at something, there's no defense that can stand against her.

He was also trying to get his stash (aka. security blanket) back, but that's a different issue entirely.

#40 Jul 11th 2006, 7:25am
flight815surviver
Indeed yet more issues. I think he does need the secrurity blanket. Plus Jack needs commitment that Kate can't give him cos of the whole fugetive thing and as I've sed like a million times before SHE DON'T NEED FIXING!
#41 Jul 13th 2006, 8:53am
spotpc
I think she does need fixing. But Jack doesn't have the tools to do it. Kate needs unconditional love from someone who will listen to her entire story and never flinch. Jack has such a high standard for himself, and he prefers other people to be at that standard too. There's no way he could know everything about her without flinching.
#42 Jul 13th 2006, 9:55am
flight815surviver
I sorta get what you mean but Jack is far too black and white to understand how she feels or how to help her.
#43 Jul 15th 2006, 8:40am
spotpc
I agree. And ironically, that's also why he's earned the loyalty of all the outcasts. Because he helps everybody regardless of who they are or how they came to be there. The outcasts like Sawyer, Kate, Sayid, and Charlie have been so beaten down. The kindness and acceptance Jack shows them makes them feel good. So that becomes like a magnet that draws them closer to him. And the support they show him makes him feel good too. So I think what we'll see in season three is that group becoming even tighter and closer-knit. At least, that's what I'd like to see happen.
#44 Jul 15th 2006, 3:54pm
IloveDeltoraQuest'Dylantoo'
I hate Nathan

Not really. He's my little brother incase you are wondering.

Ana is dead now!!!!!!!!!

Oh, well i didn't really like her. She's too mean to Sawyer. Muahaahahaha

Bye bye

#45 Jul 15th 2006, 9:40pm
flight815surviver
ok. Yes i do see what you mean about acceptance.

I know what you mean about little bro's, I werent annies biggest fan either.

#46 Jul 16th 2006, 1:55pm
IloveDeltoraQuest'Dylantoo'
Yeh, i think that Sawyer and Kate make a cool couple though.

Any Sawyer fans go to this website. It is soooo funny. I couldn't stop laughing the whole way through it. If you want the lyrics, ask for them cos i have them.

www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/sawyer.php

#47 Jul 19th 2006, 6:07am
flight815surviver
the sawyer song! lol. For the love of god that song rules. Has anyone heard the llama version?
#48 Jul 19th 2006, 10:11am
spotpc
That was dumb... What's happened to people? Where is the wit? The irony? The satire? These days it all comes down to the lowest common denominator. A stupid song and some random screencaps. Where has the intelligence gone? People don't try anymore because it's not expected of them. And why should they try when the masses are happy with incoherent drivel like that sad excuse for a music video. They could at least put in the effort to give their video an actual message. There aught to be an ad in the newspaper every day saying: HELP! Real artists wanted to drag the world out of this intellectual black hole!

See, I'm an English major. When I want to blast something, I can really blast it.

#49 Jul 25th 2006, 3:04pm
flight815surviver
wow, please write my personal statement for me lol.

There are a few good videos out there go to www.lostvideo.net.

#50 Jul 25th 2006, 3:21pm


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