And as to Kaoru staying single...well, I have a hard time imagining that! ^_^ But you're right, she's young and it doesn't mean she's going to -poof- get married on demand...but I also can't stand seeing Sanosuke left alone, either. So if the Meg/Ken pairing WAS official, then what would you say to a Sano/Kaoru pairing? I'm just randomly throwing out questions; it's not often you come across someone with such different but wonderfully in-depth ideas as you! ^_^

I often get frustrated because the KK pairing like...INFESTS everything. LOL! I write KK sometimes, but usually only if it's accompanied by Aoshi/Misao or Sano/Meg since I can't write KK well on it's own.

Thanks for replying to my questions so quickly.

I think Sano and Kaoru care a lot about each other, and they're good friends, but I really don't see any sexual desire there. Maybe that's just because Sano's used to casual sex and not relationships, though. Who knows? Maybe if the circumstances were right to make them see each other as potential partners instead of just friends, it could happen.

On a completely off-topic side note: this is similar to how I feel about the Sano/Kenshin pairing. Good friends, yes, care a lot about each other, yes, sexual desire... no. As much as I love yaoi, these two are not the candidates for it if you ask me, although I have recently found a good SK story that really makes them seem to go together well... it's called Shifting the Balance, and it takes place after Sano comes back from China, but Kenshin hasn't left Tokyo. I think that setting allows Sano to be more mature, so he goes better with Kenshin than he would in, say, the Tokyo arc.

lol, KK DOES infest things! hahahaha i've never seen that particular word applied to it before, but it's appropriate. i don't have a problem with canon pairings, but when people just write the same pairing *all* the time, it gets boring. Therefore, I run a C2 for rare pairings, be they canon pairings that just don't get much attention like Saito/Tokio, or alternate pairings that don't have a big following (ie: no Sano/Kenshin, no Kaoru/Soujirou, no Kaoru/Enishi... alternate, yes, but rare, no.)

in episode 7 when kenshin said: " to save miss kaoru...i will become a manslayer once again" and if also th title of that episode was 'Fight under the moonlight. To save the one I love' need i say more

the fact that kaoru was the only one who kenshin said goodbye to was very good proof that there are unknow feeling between them.

dont forget that before the battle with soujiro he heard kaoru's voice calling him

and while his fight with shishio, shishio was about to break his neck or choke him( i dont know exactly) when he remembered his moment with kaoru with the fireflies, then he heard her voice calling his name which immidiatly made him gain enough strenght to hit shishio with his sword......come on he wouldnt remember that if he thinks of her like a sister

there are many other scenes that prove my point so if anyone who needs more proof i will gladly say more

also kaoru may not understand what it is like to have a dark past but she did except kenshin despite him bieng a manslayer 10 years ago.....she also can brin him back from becoming battousai again

and about kenshin needing someone more mature....that doesnt matter when it come to love....come on i am 17 and i am more crazy than kaoru...everyone goes through a phase of craziness and immaturity

so duuuuuuuuuh of course kenshin and kaoru belong together

that is my opinion

i'm a huge k/k fan

antica ^_^

that's my opinion anyway

you may nevcer know what goes on inside kenshin's head....sometimes he acts like her brother and sometimes you can feel that he loves her..........it so complicated lol

antica ^_^

at that time period, it wouldn't have made much sense to be shy about sex, because they were more open about it than now. if he blushes when he comes in contact with her, maybe it's because he knows how she feels about him and that makes it more awkward.

those things said, it's perfectly ok that you think they're in love. i don't agree, but you have every right to think it.

like when everytime megumi clings to him and the time he kept holding shura's hand when he wanted to stop her from killing herself

so that's why i said he may be shy when it comes to sex

^_^

I personally think that Kenshin and Kaoru were in love in the series...if they were in real life, well, I'd have to agree with sacred night. I like the idea of a platonic relationship between Kaoru and Kenshin. I think they could give each other a lot more as close friends rather than lovers.

Unfortunately, even Watsuki could not escape the formula of having the lead male fall in love with the the lead girl. Tough luck.

He'd been in countless fights, got shifted around from high school to high school and was just your every day badass. In fact, he explicitly told me that he'd never want me to see him in a fight because I'd cry over what he'd do to the other person...ummm...egotistical much? lol..anywayz....getting back to the point I strayed from in the first place...Kao completely understands his dark past, but knows that there's more to him than just that. She sees him for the sweet, good-natured and honest person he is. She had to endure her own family losses and that makes her a stronger person as well and that's why I think that she's quite mature enough for Kenshin.

He wants a cheery burst of energy in his life after everything he's been through and Kao's just that. After you've been wandering for 10 years and have buried your supposed first love, why would you want more mooping? Wouldn't you want to find that one person who smiles and lights up your day? Sorry...I may sound really corny...lol...but it's everything I've heard from day one in my relationship.

Oh and Megumi and Kenshin?...interesting but rather hard to digest. She's perfect for Sano...I truly believe in opposites attracting! I mean imagine two boring, depressed people getting together? What in the world would they do? lol...opposites keep things interesting!

Sorry bout the length of this~

anyway

i'm glad you agree with me and i so agree with you with the point that kenshin needs someone cheerful in his life and sees the good things in you like what kaoru does for kenshin.

and also i think that kaoru isnt scared of the battousai and cries because of him being unleashed. i think she is scared that kenshin may break his vow not to kill, but is not scared of battousai himself

totally agree about your point about megumi and kenshin, she is better off with sano, even tought they both have dark pasts they still have a very intersting relationship...with all the fighting they do lol

about the point where kenshin blushes to kao, meg, and shura, i think he blushes because of the akward moments that he has with them.....he is too dense to figure out that they have feelings for him(my opinion), and doesnt blush when he is with misao is because there is no awkward moments with her...she is always yelling, hitting or calling him names lol

i'm so glad DeeKaui is with me on this opinion lol i was the only one defending k/k....i'm glad someone is now with me to defend them

antica ^_^

There's actually another forum on here that goes into a really good discussion about this topic as well. Someone said something about Tomoe and Kaoru being perfect for Kenshin at those different points in his life. While I love Kao and Ken, I can completely understand that as well. I don't want to take credit for someone else's ideas, so again, this was written in another forum. They said that basically when Ken met Tomoe he was younger and in a different place in his life. When he met Kao, he was much older and in a completely different mind-set. I can understand that!

Tomoe and Kaoru are two different personalities which suited Kenshin at different times in his life. I guess most of us like Kaoru better because she's so positive and upbeat as opposed to Tomoe's very quiet and introverted nature. So personality wise as well...I prefer Kaoru over TOmoe.

ya i know about that discussion and i think so too...they are both diffrent personalities who suited kenshin in diffrent phases of his life

i definatly prefer kaoru over tomoe

antica ^_^

This is what I think: I agree with the fact the "Rurouni" Kenshin needs a shining light in his dark little world of angst and atonement; while "Hitokiri Battousai" would grow kind of irritated with a bubbly Kaoru at his side. Kenshin in his time as an assassin would need someone more understanding of his dark nature, namely Tomoe. So yes, I agree with the idea that in different times of his life, Kenshin would be off better with a certain woman. They say--just as DeeKaui said, her boyfriend is nothing like her and yet they're in a great relationship--that your true loves completes you! ^_~ Whatever Kenshin lacks in the time of his life, is what his love has to provide, as well as vice-versa.

On the other hand, I believe Kenshin's outlook on women is a lot different from another man's POV, such as Sanosuke (ooh boy, let's not get into HIS POV ^_^''' I think Sano may have been a bit too much of a drastic example, but you get what I mean). My idea is that Kenshin feels inside, after holding Tomoe's 'love' and ending up killing her, accidental or not; I think Kenshin feels unworthy to impose his feelings on someone as happy and innocent as Kaoru. Same goes for friendship. So I think that once Kenshin finally breaks through his resistance to show his love to Kaoru, it will be all that much harder for Kenshin to show sexual feelings to her. I mean, the poor guy's as shy as a rabbit in the first place! *imagines Kenshin with rabbit ears Oo* I think Kenshin and Kaoru's relationship is like that of any true love, though a bit dragged out and prolonged. It starts out as them being offhand friends, to a deeper friendship, to a unspoken crush, to a shy love, to spoken love, and then eventually to lovemaking as a physical and spiritual emblem of Kenshin and Kaoru's love for one another. Sex isn't about lust. If it was, then it wouldn't be special, and if sex wasn't a sign of love but of lust, then having sex with someone could be as casual as with a best friend. If you know what I mean! ^.^'' I think Kenshin's the kind of guy who respects a woman in that sense, and I don't think he gets very many naughty thoughts about Kaoru. O_o

Though, I have to admit that KK pairing gets a little......old. I mean, KenTomoe or another pairing with Kenshin or Kaoru is or should be welcomed! Especially if it makes sense, or is portrayed in a way that's believable. Even really alternate parings like SanoKaoru can be readable, if it's a good fiction and gives good reason for Kenshin and Kaoru to not be together.

On the side, the anime portrays Kaoru as.... well, as "one of those girls who repeat whatever the last person said in a sentence, and turn it into a question". LOL I like the manga Kaoru better than the one in the anime; manga Kaoru seems more strong in heart and just more RK-esque. I think manga Kaoru is best suited to Kenshin.

And YES!!! :D Yes, yesyesyesyesyesyes!! ^^ Sanosuke and Megumi pairing is my favorite and the most darn OBVIOUS RK love-situation...besides KK. Darn Watsuki... ahem anyways (LOL this is a KK vs KT forum, I must keep that in mind!) I really like both KenKao and TomoKen, and I think that they are both very wonderful matches for Himura, though at different times. If I had to say, I'd say I liked KenshinTomoe better, simply because I'm tired of reading the same KK pairing over and over and over and over again...unless it's a really good fiction, but still....

Keep in mind that I'm not trashing KK! ^_~ I'm more of a SanoMeg fan than anything, anyways....LOL. ^_^'

Another question I have is what's your take on Kenshin being paired with some one else? Like Megumi, Misao or even--gasp--an OC (horror of horrors)

Is it like, "No way, these two are the only women who could possibly fit Kenshin's needs at a certain time!" Or are you more open to it?

Because people often say that characters in the RK universe are "tailor made" for each other, but it's odd because there are different ways that they can be "the perfect match."

So even in Kaoru is "perfect" for Kenshin, could there be some one else who is, too?

Sano and Megs is a great pairing. I love their bickering, fighting, and some! I think it's mainly bc they're similar to a couple I know and their bickering is better than any money spent on a movie ticket!!! Haha...sorry, they're complete fools in love so it's sweet and entertaining to watch em argue and play kick each other's **.

I dont wanna trash anyone's fic that features alternate pairings of Kenshin with others, but it's just kind of hard to imagine that esp if it's not an well written fic. As for OC's...with Kenshin...eh...it'd have to be a really, really, really, really, really, really, really, REALLY well-written piece of work...which I have yet to read. I'm open to any suggestions though...

= )

i completely understand a person who's had a sad life might (might!) want a happy-go-lucky cheerful type, but you can't assume that's necessarily true, as someone pointed out... they can be QUITE annoying to someone who's not into that sort of thing, but i suppose the adult kenshin is the type to enjoy that sort of thing. that's why he's *friends* with Kaoru. someone said young kenshin wouldn't appreciate that so much, though, and i'd like to point out that he *did* play with children regularly in Otsu, and was also in love with Tomoe at the same time. I think there are more sides to him than just one or the other, and that he's not one person during the war and a different person after it... he has both of those qualities in him at all times, just like we all have different sides to ourselves that we show at different times. that's one reason why I personally think Tomoe, had she lived, would have suited him well throughout his life.

Kaoru's cheerfulness might be good for Kenshin, but i still say that's no indicator of sexual attraction or love. sorry. i doubt anyone will ever come up with a good enough argument to convince me there is attraction between these two... whilie it's true that sex isn't just about lust, it's also true that at least SOME lust is needed, and i just don't see it there. the maturity level is too different, despite kaoru's loss of her parents. kenshin's loss of his parents was just the beginning of a whole series of unfortunate events, and it wasn't even the worst thing in said series. i don't mean she's immature or that she needs to change, just that they're at different places in their lives. another reason i just sort of realized today is that the whole not being worthy of her love thing is more than a feeling of unworthiness. i have often wonders why he keeps her out of battle so much when she's clearly more experienced, stronger, etc. than Yahiko, who he frequently allows to participate. I think the reason is that Yahiko has a little bit of a dark past, and though he hasn't killed, he's not exactly innocent, either. i think he wants to preserve Kaoru's innocence and that seeing her have to lose that by fighting would pain him greatly. i think she's sort of a symbol for the "new era" that he wants to keep pure and protect. in that sense, i think he's protective of her the way an older brother would be, not the way a lover would be. all in all, i think she's very good for him as a friend, and that he values her a lot in that way, but that he's not in erotic love with her. plus, i kinda think after she gets over the initial infatuation, she'd feel the same about him.

as for OCs... i like them if they're really good, because... well... the RK characters are originals, too, just not OUR originals... just because a character was made up by a different person doesn't make him or her inferior... i've come across some very good ones. i do get a little turned off if i see KxOC in a summary, but i guess that's a stereotype i need to work on, since there are good ones like that out there. alternate pairings within the RK character list are cool, too. i like to see originality, and that gets hard with the same 3 pairings over & over... which is why i run the C2 "My Cache of Rare Gems" for rare pairings. Sorry for the shameless plug, but it's relevant to the conversation, so i figured it was ok... i like to see originality, but i doesn't HAVE to be AU to do that... i also accept stories about a canon pairing that just doesn't get much attention.

*on an only partly related side note... do sano and megumi ever even get together in the manga/anime? i don't recall that "officially" happening and don't really understand the rationale for that pairing, either... come to think of it, i have my disputes with aoshi/misao too... hehe i guess i'm just the natural enemy of all things traditional ^_^

I completely agree with your assessment of Kenshin and Kaoru's relationship. I always say that, even if in Watsuki's world they are in love, I have always like the idea of a platonic relationship between them. Part of me thinks that Watsuki only put them together because that's what he was "supposed" to do. Starting the series, he said he didn't know if Kaoru and Kenshin were going to fall in love. I think the series would have benifitted if they hadn't. Just because it turns the whole relationship into a cliche Shonen Hero+Fiery Damsel situation.

That's why I put a lot of focus on their platonic bond in my fics. I am still thinking about writing a fic where Kenshin and Kaoru find out they CAN'T be in love (they are brother and sister) and than later find out that it's not actually true. They're not related at all, but the experiance has changed their (especially Kaoru's) point-of-view where she'd rather be a close friend to Kenshin than a lover. It's sort of that whole growing out of an infatuation thing that sacred night said.

Also, I love what you said about Kenshin/Battousai because it epitomizes everything I believe about that. His personality didn't exactly "change" or become different, just one aspect of it was put in the forfront. Of course in the Bakamatsu he's going to be quiet and cold. And once there's peace, he is free to let out his fun, cheerful side every now and again.

And the same thing goes for Tomoe. I'm not saying she's really a tomboy at heart or anything, but how do we know that the cold, confused persona she has isn't just ONE SIDE of her personality? I mean, she's all alone, living with the man who killed her fiancee...So is she going to be a little frosty? Hell yes. Even I would be.

I don't know if Tomoe and Kenshin would have worked past the Bakamatsu. I really don't. But I don't doubt that it could.

And the whole 'originality' aspect of fanfiction is what MY C2 is based on, so it's kind of funny. I generally dislike AUs because it's sort of just like writing a story and inserting these pre-made characters into it. I mean, why not just write it as fiction, right? Some AUs that aren't REALLY AUs I do like. (For instance, if it's set in the Meiji Era with just some changes about the RK dynamic.)

I love Sano/Megumi. It's my favorite canon couple because it ISN'T a canon couple. So no, sacred night, they never officially got together at all. I like the idea because there's substantial enough interaction to prove some sort of attraction, but we don't get the story layed out for us. Like, we already KNOW Kenshin and Kaoru get married and have a kid, so why continue to write stories about them? There are so many other relationships and dynamics to be explored!

Which is a good reason I like OCs. Because good OCs will always bring out a new side to a character (by that I don't mean Mary-Sue brings out the lovesick teenager side of Kenshin) and you create a whole new angle. Same with alternate pairings (especially ones like Kaoru/Aoshi

Anyways, "The Sacred Night", I read your opinions (you being the staunch supporter of Tomoe). I am actually not too sure about who would have been better for Kenshin, Kaoru or Tomoe. I am going to use the manga to support the fact that Kenshin and Kaoru truly did love each other (they had a kid at the end, and I'm confident Kenshin would never marry anyone out of sympathy or pity. He would feel that that kind of action would ruin his life). However, here's my honest opinion - I don't think that, if Kaoru was in Tomoe's position in Bakumatsu, she would be able to coax Kenshin out of his Battousai state. I think Tomoe was the only one who could accomplish such a task. Kaoru, in both the anime and the manga, fears Battousai immensely. She likes the rurouni, but she cannot tolerate Battousai, and always tries to make sure that he doesn't fully revert to his old self. That is what Kenshin needs in the Meiji era (he needs to escape the manslayer within him), but during the Bakumatsu, he needed someone to open his eyes. Kaoru, with her fear, would've been unable to do so, but Tomoe was able to do so because of her maturity, perception, and experience. She was able to look past the manslayer and see the child within Kenshin.

Unfortunately, this goes the same for Tomoe as well. I'm not sure if Tomoe could actually keep Kenshin happy after Bakumatsu (agreeing with WhiteRabbit Tale here). After Bakumatsu, Kenshin would stop slaying, but he would always regret taking away all those lives, and I'm not sure if she could always reassure him the way Kaoru does during the series. He needed someone who would be able to smile at him. Plus, I don't think he would remain happy with Tomoe if he lived his life with her knowing that he killed her fiance and caused her such pain. He needed to be with someone who was not affected by his past life, someone who could overlook it (like Kaoru).

So, basically, my opinion is that Kenshin needed each woman for a different stage in his life, and that neither woman could replace the other.

And I'm sorry for boring you with this huge, long reply.

PS. I like reading about Megumi and Sanosuke, and Aoshi and Misao, but truth be told, neither couple actually got together at the end of the manga. Sanosuke ran away from the police, Megumi left Tokyo and accepted a job elsewhere so that she could look for any remaining family, and even in the Cherry Blossoms after-story, Aoshi and Misao still don't appear to have tied the knot. However, nothing against any fics!

Plus, I like OCs, and if they are well-written, I don't mind them having a relationship with a main character (this is for you WhiteRabbit Tale ^_^)

You made a very good point that I like a lot:

Kenshin needs some one who was not affected by his past. Of course, that's a lot of people. But it's NOT Tomoe. I think Tomoe may have served as too much of a reminder of Kenshin's past sins for him to repent (in his own eyes) entirely.

kenshin needs someone who doesnt remind him of his past and well tomeo will always remind him that he destroyed her happiness( i mean her arika) and lets not forget that tomoe had arika and she looked like she loved him a lot

i sick with my opinion about k/k being perfect together

antica ^_^

that said, i don't think she's "too much of a reminder" of his past because hel-lo, he thinks about it practically every waking moment anyway, so i'm not sure any reminder could make it worse than it already is... the ssword is a reminder... his scar is a reminder... he is *surrounded* by reminders and probably to him, even the new era is a reminder because his past created it. in that sense, Kaoru might even be a reminder, because she and her sword style epitomize the new era and the ideals which brought it about. she's also a reminder to him of everything he thinks he never can be: innocent, happy, carefree, etc. i think tomoe (or megumi for that matter) would actually be *less* of a reminder because there wouldn't be such a stark contrast between the two of them to highlight it. besides, even if he did find out while she was alive that he'd killed her fiancee, the fact that she was able to forgive him would speak volumes about how much she loved him and believed in him... when kaoru reassures him it might be kind of empty because she doesn't really know what she's talking about, but tomoe, who deeply, fully understands all the implications and *still* not only forgives him, but falls in *love* with him after all that, seems much more powerful to me.

As for Megumi with Kenshin...I just don't know...doesn't feel natural..haha, but that's just me. I can see where you're coming from although...but...ack...just can't imagine those two being together.

Again, it's my complex with good girls and semi-bad boys...haha...his dark past and her upbeat positive attitude. They could both teach each other a few things...you take that any which way you like! lol...this convo is sooooo interesting!

you know what else that really interesting to me instead most any pairings? the chase! lol...the parts where they sort of know they want to be together, but just dont get together quite then. But when they do get together...i guess it's sweet and all, but the excitment is gone!

Hmmm...it's been a while since i've seen the dvd at home, but i think there was one scence that gave the impression that ken and tomoe got together...but lemme check for sure...i might just be confusing it with something else. hmm...you've got me thinking about that whole first thing stuff now....

aw, you break my heart when you say kenshin doesnt like her *that* way! hehe..but i see from your likings, why you say K and T together.

Hehe, i wonder what a male perspective of this conversation would be like? ANY MEN OUT THERE? HELLLLLLOOOO? COMMENT PLEASE! hehe...

Of course we could always persuade Shenyu or Zion to get over here...but I think they're all probably in love with Kaoru. Haha (sorry to Zion and Shenyu if you're not!) Much in the same way all us fangirls are in love with Kenshin.

I stand by my assessment that Tomoe would be a reminder of Kenshin's past. Even if *she* forgives him, he would not forgive himself.

And he doesn't compare himself to Kaoru in canon ever, so I don't think that would be a problem.

This is so odd for me to be in between extremes of an argument. I'm usually fighting tooth and nail for my side, but this time I'm just sitting around here and assessing each of your claims. I'm seeing what makes sense in a pretty non-biased way, wouldn't you think so?

*is proud of self*

I really do adore kaoru/kenshin pairings and there’s something about tomoe I just don’t like... that’s just how I am but, I do understand that kenshin needed someone to keep him grounded, from going insane from all the people he has killed. And tomoe was there, but for her own reasons of revenge first. tomoe judged him first before she got to know him and the first reason she got to know him was to find his weakness or create a weakness before she began to love him. kaoru on the other hand didn’t judge him the moment she heard who he truly was kaoru accepted him as he is and was and she didn’t push him to tell her his past, she was willing to wait till he was ready to say so. Yes she did fear the darker part of him. But she still stayed; I don’t think kaoru would have married him if she completely feared his darker part. Because no matter what side he shows its still kenshin she can’t love him unless she loved him completely and understands him even if its just to a certain extent she does try. I don’t believe that kaoru is completely innocent/pure who trully is? Everyone has their light as well as their darkness no matter how little or big it is

not only that kaoru understood pain and loneliness where as how kenshin and megumi lost their families at a young age they lost all of them at once whereas kaoru had to go through it again and again. She lost her mother at a young age then loses her father later on. to feel one death and slowly heal but with that pain doesn’t truly go away the fear of losing another and it does happen hurts even more having something crash down all over again. kaoru had to mature and grow she understood what its like to feel pain and what its like to be lonely even if its different pain is still pain. kaoru is mature even though she doesn’t show it often she does understand how kenshin feels if she didn’t why would she go with him to visit tomoe’s grave?

kenshin does love kaoru and yes he did love tomoe but he did not stay and keep his heart closed to her and her alone. He was able to move on as he says so when he is fighting enishi: “Enishi: Battousai. You said you saw my sister smile. What about now? Is she smiling now?

Kenshin: No . . . I can't see if she's smiling or not. That one smile was the last . . . I can't see her anymore. I can't hear her voice. But it doesn't matter. Just once was enough. With that, I can seek the smiles of the one most dear to me now, and my friends, and all those I see before me. I can take a new step, stronger than before.”

Kaoru really is mature and it shows in the last manga or rurouni kenshin but I’m not going to put the whole thing here that would kina be a pain so you’ll have to read it and see how mature she truly is ^-^.

Also kenshin did not turn into a rurouni out of regret of killing tomoe it’s much bigger than that. kenshin doesn’t look at the little things he looked at the bigger picture. With the help of tomoe's death he finnally understood and sees individuals and understands the value of each person’s life. He did not stop being a hitokiri just out of regret of killing tomoe that was only a part, he stopped being a hitokiri because he finnally understood the value of human life. And this is comming from watsuki's repsonse of why kenshin stopped being a hitokiri.

Tomoe may have fell in love with kenshin but she still betrayed him first before she fell in love with him.

Kaoru's acceptance of him certainly meant a lot to Kenshin, but it was easy for Kaoru. He had already proven himself a good guy, and she isn't the type of girl to judge, so she didn't. Simple.

But for Tomoe, who had already made up her mind to hate Kenshin, to fall in love with him and trust him and be happy with him...that takes true courage and strength.

They both ended up loving Kenshin, but the difference is that Tomoe originally had a reason to hate him, while to Kaoru he was this nice guy who saved her. I mean, which of those transformations is more astounding?

Far from accusing Kaoru of being immature, I just think that a relationship between Kaoru and Kenshin would be much too "You follow, I lead."

I feel like Kaoru would just be taking Kenshin's lead the whole time, and they wouldn't "share equal custody of the relationship." (Cute turn of phrase, I forgot who made it up!)

I strongly feel that Kenshin would be making all the decisions for them. He would decide to move slow. What if Kaoru wanted to take things more quickly? It's for her to say, it's for them to compromise, but I think Kaoru wouldn't take that initiative. She idolizes him a little too much to possibly believe that HER rash decision could possibly contend with HIS decision to be respectful and gentlemanly.

And perhaps that rash decision wouldn't be a good one, but that's not the point. She would trust that Kenshin's terms, his way of doing things was RIGHT far too much. She could never assert herself in a relationship with him, I feel. She would think that only HE could know what was best for them.

Well, that sounds odd, but it's basically what I'm trying to say. Kenshin wouldn't deliberately dominate, but I believe that he would, in fact, end up taking the lead almost 100% of the time. Er, not healthy, anyone? Especially not for a girl like Kaoru.

i still say that kenshin loves kaoru, he did love tomoe and i admit that she is still in his heart but it is okay to love another most kenshin and tomoe dont accept the fact that kenshin will fall in love with kaoru.....

there are things like second loves......dont forget that kenshin is tomoe's second love.....

so if tomoe managed to get a second love then why cant kenshin have one? why does he have to suffer all this life because he killed the one he loved? he has the right to love again and be happy

kaoru accepted him as he is, even thought it was becauseshe thought he was a nice guy when she first met him, but she still accepted him after she knew who he was

question: who would accept someone who slayed thousands of men 10 years ago and was known to be the strongest manslayer of that time?

answer: almost no one....kaoru accepted him and misao did the same thing....other people may be terrified of him or hate him or something similar to that

who knows??

i stick with k/k

^_^

I really don't think the question is whether Kenshin can have a second love, but rather if Kaoru is suited to be that second love. Personally, I think they BOTH deserve better out of a relationship. I hold to my original statement that both would merit more from a deeply platonic bond.

kaoru accepted him as he is, even thought it was becauseshe thought he was a nice guy when she first met him, but she still accepted him after she knew who he was

question: who would accept someone who slayed thousands of men 10 years ago and was known to be the strongest manslayer of that time?

answer: almost no one....kaoru accepted him and misao did the same thing....other people may be terrified of him or hate him or something similar to that

Yes, but think about this: Who would accept a man that had murdered their loved one?

Tomoe did. It took her a long time, but in the end she did.

And the difference is this: Kaoru met Kenshin as a nice guy. She later found out he was Battousai, but she already knew he was a nice guy. Therefore, yes, it was great of her to accept his past, but she really had no reason not to. It was her naivete that led her to accept Kenshin. But it was Tomoe's maturity and wisdom that let her overcome a grudge.

Those people like Enishi, Tomoe and countless OC villains you'll encounter in fics...they all HATE Kenshin because of some terrible thing he did to them. They all have PLENTY of reasons to hate Kenshin, and so they do. Only Tomoe manages to get past her own hatred, her own bias to see who Kenshin really is. It is the fact that she first met him as an enemy and THEN loved him that I find her acceptance so much more touching and meaningful. She had EVERY reason to hate him, but she didn't. She managed to look beyond her own feelings towards him. That is something that not everyone can do.

As for Kaoru, I would absolutely adore seeind her with someone like Aoshi who started out as an enemy, someone truely detestable (I don't mean that in the most literal way. I mean that in that Aoshi became a rather detastable, ogre-like man in the process of redeeming himself. I still think Aoshi is one of the most loyal characters in RK.) Kaoru would be more willing to assert herself to someone like Aoshi because he was an enemy FIRST--someone she couldn't trust. And later she, like Tomoe, could see past her own assumptions and accept Aoshi for what he is. (This is true of Soujiro, Saitou, Sano, even, but I am using Aoshi as an example because A/K rocks my socks!)

I think since Kaoru did not start out with this idealistic image of Aoshi, she would have no problem taking initiative and countering her ideas against his instead of blindly following everything he says as being "right" or "what's best." Kaoru's an independent woman, and I think she would have a much easier time asserting herself with someone like Aoshi. I feel it would be a much more equal relationship with either one taking the lead at any time. Compromise would be a lot more possible. And Kaoru deserves that.

I also don't think Tomoe would be entirely happy with Kenshin. Yes, she would be happy and in love, but before she died, you can tell she was still in love with Akira. She still kept the hairpin that he gave her, she wasn't entirely comfortable with the idea of loving Kenshin, or else she probably would have told Enishi, and prevented him from going to the Yaminobu. When she gave her life to save Kenshin's, and she said, "This is the way things are supposed to be," was it because she thought Kenshin deserved to live in the new era he helped forge? Or was it because she still felt guilty for letting Akira go to Kyoto and die, thus losing her love? I thought it was both.

I do think that Kenshin did love Tomoe, but as Kaoru is young so was he. He needed someone to pull him out of the river of blood he was drowning in, and that person was Tomoe, someone who needed to atone for her own deeds. I agree that Tomoe hating and then loving Kenshin is more strong than Kaoru accepting a stranger into her home. But I don't think that means Kaoru's love is any weaker. All it means is that Tomoe had a harder time of falling in love.

So when I read this topic, I started thinking "Who is Kenshin right for," not "Who is right for Kenshin", Tomoe was searching for someone to kill and found someone to love, or Kaoru, who wasn't searching at all? Tomoe already had wieght on her shoulders as Kenshin did, and while that would mean she could understand his pain, and offer a solution, her own pains would still drag them down. Kaoru showed that she put Kenshin's well being ahead of understanding his past in volume 19, when instead of pressuring him to tell her who the new enemy was, she told him to heal his wounds. Kaou could help relieve his pain, as shown by the fading of his scar. Kenshin wouldn't forget Tomoe (who would?) but he could move on, and settle down in a place where he could live the rest of his days in peace.

By the way, this is off topic (sorry about that!) but I noticed that Tomoe called Akira "Kiyosato-san". What does she call Kenshin? I don't think she ever calls him by his name in the manga, but maybe there was something in the OAV? Just curious...

i respect tomoe/kenshin fans they have their opinion and i have mine and it that k/k DO love each other VERY much....and no one can change it.......i have nothing agaist tomoe....i like her a little but mu opinion will stay the same i love k/k better

Hey Rei, that was my favorite quote from kenshin " I can seek the smiles of the one most dear to me now..." sooo sweet...

I think Kaoru is perfect to be Kenshin's second love. As for the whole thing about Kaoru asserting herself in a relationship with Kenshin, well i dont see how that would be problem for her. I mean she's a strong independant woman, yes, and she does at times seem to idolize him, but that doesn't mean she'll let him take charge 100%. She's younger, innocent sure, but not a brainless doll to have decisions made for her. She constantly goes against Kenshin's wishes when he asks her to stay behind and not follow him. I think that their personalities are perfectly suited for each other. And standing by my convictions, I dont think a platonic relationship bet K and K is cool. It's not enough...he loves her, protects her, woudl do anythign for her. And she would probably do the same for him...that's passion.

As for Tomoe, well one thing that I have gained from your thoughts is a respect for her. I dont completely hate her anymore...hehe...but I still think that Kaoru is his most cherished love. It was huge of Tomoe to forgive him and still love him and I'm sure he loved her just as much. But...that was not meant to be his happy ending. He would only find that with Kaoru...perfection.

but make no mistake i still like kaoru better and still think she is perfect for kenshin (lol i know i'm stuborn)

Oh and one more point on the whole thing with Kaoru not being assertive enough, again, I don't think that's a possibility. Kenshin is older and wiser about the world, but Kaoru's past and her strength lend enough of evidence to show that she isn't a pushover next to him. I mean everyone loves to be in control and of course the idea of having a perfect 50/50 relationship is prime, but sometimes (SOMETIMES) giving up some control isn't so bad. Sometimes Kenshin can do that because of Kaoru's pushy nature and sometimes Kaoru will be able to do that because of his experiences. I think they can have a wonderful relationship with each other and as someone stated before, a cute lil 5 year old by the name of Kenji is evidence of that.

So for you Tomoe supporters, I concede that I do respect the woman more than before, but I still truly believe he was meant to be with Kaoru.

Starting from the posts down from which I last replied. I can't really think of too many people that Kenshin can be paired with that gets me interested; it's basically just Tomoe and Kaoru to me. An OC...maybe. It'd have to be a REALLY good one! Though Kaoru I find to be more versatile in pairings. Sano, Enishi (sort of), ect...though in reality I can only seriously and completely accept her with Kenshin. Probably because it's been rammed into my forehead millions of times that "THEY BELONG TOGETHER!!" Yeesh. Talk about broken records, no offense... when you hang around KK fans like I do, a poor SanoMeg fan like me would like better to crawl up under a rock and write fanfiction and eat McDonalds for the rest of her Godforsaken life. LOL!

I agree with Sacred Night on the fact that Kenshin indeed has many faces and attitudes, rather than just Battousai and Rurouni. The Battousai, after all, wasn't a monster. He was a boy fighting for what he thought was right, and did it in the only way he knew of how. And I can never quite imagine Kenshin getting all "lusty" over Kaoru!! Oo' It just somehow...doesn't quite fit. I've never really thought about their sex relationship, because the both of them just don't seem to go that way. But that is only me and my opinion... though there IS the fact of Kenji's existance... *sigh* Though the idea that Watsuki might have put them together because he was 'supposed to' keeps haunting me. Could you imagine the anger towards the poor man had he done otherwise?! OO' He'd be--be--ASSASSINATED! LOL! XD

I can't see Megumi and Kenshin together very well. It's always been Megumi/Sano for me.....the poor guy gets IGNORED and it ANGERS ME. *pants for breath* Heh sorry about that...but if Megumi were to be with anyone else, I've always imagined either Enishi or Aoshi. Besides Sano. Sanosuke's really my stubborn guy for Megumi!! LOL! ^_~

As to the younger, virgin guy and the older woman (not TOO old); I can't help but kind of like those relationships, too! ^_~ And DeeKaui, I can't help but say I'm glad you and your BF have such a great relationship! From what you said I'm guessing he's virgin. I suppose that's none of my business, but I find myself respecting men who do refrain from such things; I think that makes them more a man and more worth chasing after than anything else. That they respect themselves and others so much to be abstinent!! ^_~ Sorry that was the Jesus Freak side of me popping up. LOL!

I'm just sort of sick of KK. I suppose I'll have to deal with it anyhow; but it's just a little boooorinnggg to read Kaoru saying, "Oh, Kenshin! I love you, too!" And throwing herself into his arms OVER and OVER again.... the relationship just seems a little too bland for me. I like relationships where something else besides the girl getting kidnapped or the guy freaking out to his alternate personality occurs. LOL funny enough that happens in a LOT of anime/manga! That is why I like SanoMeg; lots of ups and downs, and SO many different stories to write of it! And it has been greviously ignored; so there's still a lot to dig up.

Aoshi and Misao, I'd just like to say...seems a little...physically impossible. LOL! XD He's like all TALL and she's so small...and I usually get a little bored of the hyper girl having a crush on the stone-cold guy, and she winning him anyways in the end. I mean...*sigh* But if I had to choose for sure, I'd pick Misao for Aoshi anyways. Even if it is kind of...Oo'

And yeah, Kaoru would never be able to exert herself completely in the relationship, nor take charge much. Unless you think about her picking up her bokken and bossing Kenshin around to hurry up and make dinner. LOL! XD

Everybody sounds like they're about to up and kill one another for their opinions. ^_^'

I just think that...well, I respect all opinions and I am awed by the passion and the testimonies in this forum; but I truly find something missing in the KK pairing. I think it is originality. I mean, Mr. Wonderful with the awful past and the innocent heroine... it's so overused, as it seems. T_T

Unless you've only seen the anime--I stick to the manga since that's the true root of things; I find that it's like the same relationship over and over and over and over again. Misao likes Aoshi, but Aoshi keeps whatever he feels inside 99% of the time. Same with KK. It's... just... so... BORING to me. I think that's my main opinion; it's gotten old. No offense, but the whole story seems like it's just been used over and over again...Don't get me wrong; there are a few KK fanfics I like!! *waves hands desperately to ward off hurt/angered KaoruKen fans* Please don't be offended!!! *hugs* T_T But that is why I like good alternate pairings, or Sano/? and Yahiko/? pairings. Though the anime kind of ticks me off; they make up those OCs for Yahiko and Sano, when they only end up DYING or leaving or just going away all of a sudden, breaking thier hearts! That's why I'm not a big Sayo fan. Megumi/Sano, Yahiko/Tsubame for me. But that is beside the point!!

Oroooooooooo...I am SO confused. So many opinions; it's hard to tell who is where and on what side or on both sides and--yeah! LOL! I don't even know where I am...wait, no, okay. Yeah I remember now! LOL! Try not to be too vicious on me; I myself am struggling as to what I am trying to say. *sighs and collapses in pod chair* Bleah.

I hold to what I say about Kaoru and her taking initiative. Kaoru IS a very independent, strong-willed woman, and that's why I think she would be better suited with a man who she didn't trust BLINDLY like she does Kenshin. Trust is good, yes, but not to the point of sheer blindness. She would be more confident in being assertive.

kaoru did live on her own and had to find a way to survive. if she trusted anyone "blindly" she would have gotten hurt badly or killed before she met kenshin. hell kaoru threw him in the shed when he accidently came into the bathroom when he thought she was going to drown herself. after all kaoru is the kind of person who tries to see the good in people and give them a chance to prove it.

Which brings me to my next point... yes, Kenji exists. I've seen him. I know where babies come from. They had sex. Yes. That doesn't mean they were in love... people have sex all the time with people they don't love. Now before you get all "KENSHIN WOULD NEVER HAVE SEX WITH SOMEONE HE DIDN'T LOVE" on me, let me say it's possible to THINK you're in love with someone when you're not... it's also possible to see that someone ELSE wants you and put their wishes above your own... which is just the type of thing for Kenshin to do. Besides, I think he really wants children because of not only how he interacts with Ayame and Suzume, but how even way back in Otsu he played with all the children in the village. It's very possible that he thought... well, she wants this, and I want it although for different reasons... everyone is happy this way, right? People have sex for childbearing purposes as opposed to for pleasure all the time, although not so much in modern day America, and I'm not so sure about the Meiji era in particular, but before that in Japan marriage was considered to be *for* childbearing only, not for sexual pleasure or love... so Kenshin might easily have married her in order to have children and to make her happy, two things that would then make him happy, and that might have seemed like enough for him, despite not really being in love with her in that erotic way.

Whoever quoted from the revenge arc about not being able to see/hear Tomoe anymore but seeking the smiles of those dear to him now... that quote does make me think, I'll give you that, but in the end I think it could be interpreted simply to mean he's accepted her death, not that he ceased loving her or caring about her. I think *if* she had lived she would have been perfect for him throughout their lives, because of the before-mentioned reasons and because she would have continued to grow and mature just as he did, not stayed exactly how she was during the revolution, but obviously he had to move on with his life after she died. It's not healthy to be obsessed with someone after their death to the point that you don't allow yourself to get attached to other people. He's gotten attached to other people and that's great, just as he says... but he says those people (plural) are "dear" to him and is clearly talking about a lot of people, not just Kaoru... so he's talking about platonic relationships with respect to, say, Yahiko, so why can't he be talking about a platonic relationship with Kaoru? Just because she's "dear" to him doesn't mean he wants to marry her, because as I said, Yahiko is also "dear" to him and he doesn't want to marry him... at least i sincerely hope not lol... I've actually seen Kenshin/Yahiko fics and it's DISTURBING... I love yaoi as much as anyone, but Yahiko's 22 years younger than Kenshin! If I think the 11 year difference with Kaoru is too much, a 22 year difference just makes me want to puke!

The surge of posts is mind boggling considering this thing started from one thought about K and T! I'm actually a huge supporter of Megs and Sano. I love their relationship and you are right when you say that there's would make a fun fic! hehe...like I said before, I know a couple just like them, and they are hilarious to watch! I would pay to get tickets to that type of show! haha!

The fics with Kao playing the damsel in distress is tiring, although I think if they're well written and the characters are really believable, then I have no problem with it. I mean they can both be strong and independant personalities, but I like the idea of them needing each other to complete some part of them. Whether it's Kao or Ken doing the persuing, as long as it's interesting and believable, I'm okay with it! But I'm so on board with you on that point.

Oh and the point about Kao trusting Ken blindly...I'm with Rei on that as well...I dont think she started out trusting him blindly. he definetely earned that much trust from...and you know what...when you become comfortable and fall in love with someone so passionately, you should trust them!

I guess I'm just a hopeless romantic and so I am not the least bit tired of KK pairings. Just as long as they're not those lame...ahem...I mean boring fics where everything is sooooo typical! lol...but candlelit dinners, roses, adorable cards and all that...I adore! hehe..Just as long as it's not too syrupy sweet and corny! Which is why I love imagining Kenshin as the charmer with a twist of devilishness in him! haha...bad boys with the sweet centers...love em!

As to Kaoru trusting Kenshin blindly...well, it sounds like you've all taken to the anime for that reference. In fact, in the beginning of the manga, Kaoru had accepted an old man named Keihei into the dojo when he collapsed outside the dojo. And, to Kenshin's later astonishment upon his questioning about the suspicious geezer, Kaoru had NEVER asked about Keihei's past!!! OO' I think that's a little over-trusting. And then it turned out that Keihei was after the dojo's property! (Keihei and Gohei are brothers, but originally Gohei wasn't the main villain, both he AND Keihei were. The anime cut Keihei out.) Not to mention the whole bath scene was actually an add-on by the animators. It never originally happened.

Geez woman...you're thorough on this huh? lol...well if anyone can argue that please do, I'm ashamed to say I'm not that much of an expert on the manga. (hint hint Rei!) hehe

Sano? My bf? Really? haha...okay...I'll take that...Sano's cute too. And come to think of it, he's not short like Kenshin! hehe...dont kill me for that comment! I looove Kenshin too! Omg..now you've got me thinking...the hair...the height...the temper...the cockiness...the FORMER playboy personality...good lord!!

Haha, and here I thought him more like Kenshin because of the change in personality he's had over the years, not to mention the *ahem, other troubles...well...that's what I get for comparing him to anime characters! Shame on me!

I still love K and K together...I mean oookay...he wouldve never gotten with Kao with Tomoe was still alive, that much I can admit to. BUT..she's not! hehe (I'm not happy she's dead...really...trust me...)

That whole thing about ramming it in our minds over and over that they should be together...you're right...it's succeeding in completely making me numb to all other pairings (unless they're well written of course). I mean it's an interesting break to read about alternate pairings, but the heart always wants what's natural...K and K forever! = )

I also wanted to say you guys are so fun to "discuss" this with...no one's getting nasty and angry and that's wonderful (I'm not a peace-loving hippy I promise)...I just like it when everyone can be so civilized. And besides, at least one of you taught me some respect for the other woman...Tomoe! hehe

as for kenshin just marrying kaoru for childbearing purposes, kenshin is way to honorable to just marry her just to make her happy and have a child. do you really think he would make kaoru happy if he just married her without true love? and just married her to give her a child? that would just cause kaoru pain. and kaoru isn’t the type of person who would chain someone to her if they didnt trully love her. she wants kenshin to be happy as well, kaoru would not let kenshin put her wishes above his own cause wouldn’t that cause him unhappiness? . to have someone marry you and give you a child just to make you happy but doesn’t love you, trully love you would hurt, it would hurt a lot, dont you think? if you were in that situation? would it make you happy that the person you love, married you, gave you a child, but doesn’t love you the way you love them but love you in a brotherly/sisterly way? that’s just cruel. that’s like saying ill marry you and give you a child, my body but you cant have my heart as I have yours, I’ll love you but not the way you want me too. that kind of relationship is destructive and will only cause both sides to suffer.

since we're in the topic of relationships no matter what kind, things just don’t happen and you cant just receive and take. you have to give as well. any kind of relationship needs work. right dee? with you and your boyfriend when you first met what was it like? did you hit it off quickly or did it gradually happen? you probably had to work on your relationship and go over many obstacles, you had your disagreements but you got through them after all six years gotta say something about that. because a relationship isn’t smooth right? You had to give yourself into the relationship in order for it to work. because if you didnt give yourself into the relationship it would have fallen apart.

if kenshin, kaoru, and tomoe were real i believe it could have gone either way. we cant just say who goes with who just because that person is more mature or not mature enough for that person because its up to the person who is choosing what is right for him/her. everyone has their likes and dislikes kenshin either in the anime or in real life doesn’t go by just how they act he goes by who they are on the INSIDE not just what they show on the outside. What does it matter if kenshin doesn’t seem the type that he can be erotic with kaoru? Does he say he can’t? a relationship isnt based only on sex. why don’t we strip off kenshins facade as a rurouni and the battousai? and just leave him there showing all of him not just parts of him. kenshin is honorable he's assertive when he wants to be he's kind, he fights for what he believes in, he doesn’t want to kill anymore, he's calm, he's dense, and yes he's shy but that doesn’t mean he cant be erotic. Besides everyone has their opinion on what erotic is. kaoru who she is, is yes she can get violent and can be immature at times, she's a tomboy, she's fiery and outspoken she wears her heart on her sleeve bubbly... ah no that’s misao's fort. kaoru is also kind and understanding and mature at the right times, and she tries her best to give people a chance, she's passionate in what she believes in.

I’ve read a while ago that watsuki didn’t know if he was going to make kaoru go with kenshin or not. But he also said that he didn’t have any motif for tomoe he just wanted to make her a “cool beauty” in the remembrance arc. with her he could of made her stay a “cool beauty” and let her hate kenshin and finish him off like she was going to in the beginning. So things could have went either way with both kaoru and tomoe and ended up the way they are.

You guys really should read the last manga of rurouni kenshin because it really shows how much everyone has grown and how they feel.

To back up my earlier assessment (yes, I am holding to it...and thanks MadiSano!) about Kaoru...

Yes, Kenshin is a pushover with little things like laundry and running errands. But when it comes to the direction of their relationship, I really can't see Kaoru in the lead. It would be Kenshin, almost all of the time. He is in now way controlling or domineering, but Kaoru would always think that his way would be what's "right" for them. That she had to trust him on what they might be ready for, because how could he possibly be wrong?

If she wanted to have sex, for instance, before Kenshin had deemed them "ready" for it, I don't think she would bring it up. I think if she KNEW Kenshin thought that waiting was "right" for them, she would follow that instead of what HER instincts were saying. It also has to do with the fact that she's younger, less experianced and never had a lover/husband before. It also has to do with self-consciousness, and rather than putting her feelings out there and risking "ruining" something, she would simply follow Kenshin's lead.

I don't know if this would impact their relationship, but I don't LIKE it, in any case. I'd like Kaoru to be with someone who she can challenge and who challenges her. She and Kenshin don't challenge each other, not in any way.

Plus, I never felt like there was any WANT between them. Kind of different than lust, I'm talking about the wanting to be together and be intimate and WANTING Kaoru, instead of "needing" her to open his heart or whatever.

And everyone, back in the Meiji Era almost no one married for love. So the difference between ACTUALLY loving someone and just THINKING you do would be very nonconsequential. Most married couples never loved each other to beging with. And personally, I think Kaoru might be the one who doesn't love Kenshin like she thinks she does. I think she cares about him and wants to help him and is somewhat in AWE of him, but I don't think she loves him like a wife loves her husband (in these days.)

And Kenshin, I believe, would definately put her feelings before his, in such a way that abiding to her love would be the honorable thing to do. It would almost be like tricking himself into thinking he really loved her and wanted her, instead of caring for her and wanting to protect her.

I'm sure that most if not all past socities got married (arranged and otherwise) for the purpose of bearing children, but clearly Kaoru and Kenshin are beyond the ties of society. She doesn't care what people think of him, and takes him under her roof.

As for my relationship...hehe...it was hard in the beginning as you stated. It always is...disagreements not only within the relationship but also outside of it that effect it directly (parents)! And honestly we hated...hated...HATED each other when we first met! So we first had to break through those barriers, then get to the point of actually becoming friends, then get together, and then decide if it was worth the trouble of the parent's scrutiny! *whew

LOL...Rei, I'm really impressed by your quoting Watsuki. Great work on that! More later....

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