MGW

Oh, and you and zealot2 are the same person.

That is the most racist thing I have ever heard.

MGW

Since Jews are a race of people as well as a religious sect your comments about them count as racism. The comment about Muslims could also be read as racism considering the large amount of Arab Muslims. The Christian comment was just plain stereotyping though even that could be considered anti-caucasian.

In any case, and no matter what light it is read in, your comment was hatefull, illogical, and stupid. You should be ashamed of yourself for even thinking it, let alone writing it down.

You have only to look at each of these religious cults to see the truth, jews by faith count gods blessings in money, both in this world and the next... why else would streets of gold and sapphire footstools matter?

Muslims, well look how they treat each other, to say nothing of those who don't think like they do. Thus no compassion, or do you consider all the women killed daily because the wind blew her burka up and exposed her ankle as love...

And sadly christians aren't much better... only those who pray the way you do, and read from the same version of the bible are going to heaven... each thinks they are superior and go so far as to spread hate... baptists picketing dead soldiers funerals... the same soldiers who keep them free to worship. Other sects deny their children health care, letting them die horrible when a simple shot could have saved their life...

The entire Judeo-christian cult... which includes catholic and muslim is an over-bloated self-important hypocrisy for which there is no excuse save a sad desire to believe in an invisable sky-friend who may or may not save you from reality.

My statements have nothing to do with genetics but organized religion...

MGW

Wrong. A person can very easily be wrong about an opinion.

Your opinions are wrong. Not only that, they are perverse.

Jewish people are INDIVIDUALS with their own distinct personalities, wants, and fixations.

Muslims are INDIVIDUALS with their own distinct personalities, wants, and fixations.

Christians are INDIVIDUALS with their own distinct personalities, wants, and fixations.

Atheists are INDIVIDUALS with their own distinct personalities, wants, and fixations.

Agnostics are INDIVIDUALS with their own distinct personalities, wants, and fixations.

Mormons are INDIVIDUALS with their own distinct personalities, wants, and fixations.

Buddhists are INDIVIDUALS with their own distinct personalities, wants, and fixations.

Hindus are INDIVIDUALS with their own distinct personalities, wants, and fixations.

Do you understand this simple concept yet?

Get it through your head! You are stereotyping two thirds of the human race based on their religious beliefs. Your opinions are wrong and you are a bigot.

MGW

The Catholic Church has made great strides recently in developing peaceful relations with our Jewish and Muslim brothers, not to mention with many Protestant denominations. Catholics believe that there are those in every faith who seek God with all their hearts and are thus baptized into the Body of Christ through the Baptism of desire. Every faith that leads us closer to God is a good one, though the Catholic Church has the fullness of Truth and is thus the best and easiest way to get closer to God.

The reason I set up this forum is for there to be peace between these three similar, yet different peoples.

Religion has inspired the greatest crimes againt mankind throughout history... on the other hand, an Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. An Atheist knows that heaven is something for which we should work now - here on earth - for all men together to enjoy. An Atheist thinks that he can get no help through prayer but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue, and enjoy it. An Atheist thinks that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment. Therefore, he seeks to know himself and his fellow man rather than to know a god. An Atheist knows that a hospital should be built instead of a church. An Atheist knows that a deed must be done instead of a prayer said. An Atheist strives for involvement in life and not escape into death. He wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man. He wants an ethical way of life. He knows that we cannot rely on a god nor channel action into prayer nor hope for an end to troubles in the hereafter. He knows that we are our brother's keeper and keepers of our lives; that we are responsible persons, that the job is here and the time is now.

MGW

MGW

MGW, it is not really true that religion has "inspired the greatest crimes against mankind throughout history". But that is a very common accusation that is made by people who practice no religion. Many seem almost fixated upon it, in my experience. Perhaps because they believe it gives them a justification for shunning religion.

But it’s not accurate. There are countless causes or “inspirations” of injustice and evil in this world. But true religion, which is the direct revelation of God, is not one of them. True religion most certainly does not inspire crimes against mankind or any other kind of evil in the world, because it is of God, established by God and sanctified by God, and only goodness comes from God. Judaism was the direct revelation of God, under the Old Covenant, and Christianity is the direct revelation of God under the New and Eternal Covenant. This is historical reality, not pie-in-the-sky belief… but perhaps that is an issue for another time.

Anyway, the evil that people do is a result of their free will. The individual will of the human person is what brings evil into the world. Now of course, those who want to do great evil are going to use whatever means they possibly can to justify themselves, and to gain support for what they are doing. One of the means in which persons of evil will try to justify themselves is to use the guise of religion. What better way to gain support than to find a way to claim that your actions are the “will of God”. And there are always people who will follow you if you say this. They, too, are responsible for their own actions – for blindly and weakly following a human being, rather than sincerely searching for divine truth.

Even the true religion (as opposed to false religions) can be used in this way, by the manipulation of the divine doctrine into something that seems on the surface to support what one is doing. It is no longer true doctrine, when it is so manipulated; but if people do not pay attention, focus on what is right and true rather than what is superficially appealing, and take responsibility for studying the true doctrine for themselves, they may very well be swayed by such tactics.

God's revelation is divine, and its source is true perfection; there is no evil in it. But people are human and far from perfection. The problem of evil comes from human will.

What any person or group of people does, at any time or any place, is of their own free will. It is their own choice. It is long past time that people stop trying to blame religion, or at least true religion, which is the direct revelation of God… and start taking responsibility for their own actions.

You claim that an Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. But we are mere humans, we are imperfect and we do not have all answers within ourselves. It is the love of God, and His guidance that flows from that, which shows us the way, the truly best way, to love our fellow man, and gives us the graces to do so, even in the face of great difficulty.

When one believes in God, and therefore is assured of ultimate justice for all persons, it becomes so very much easier to love our fellow man. We are free of the burden of trying to create ultimate justice here on earth, which will never happen among imperfect beings. We can forgive so much more easily when we are free of the burden of thinking that we and we alone are responsible to seeing that justice is done.

This, of course, does not in any way mean that we are not to hold people accountable for their actions. Of course we must. God will not shower His graces upon those who do not bother to even try to do their part here on earth as best they can. We have to do our very best, but we also have to realize that our very best will never be perfect, and we can find peace, true peace, in the knowledge that once we have done our very best, God will take care of the rest, in His time, and all justice will be fulfilled.

You claim that an Atheist knows that heaven is something for which we should work now - here on earth - for all men together to enjoy. But again, we are human beings, imperfect and deeply flawed, and will are not capable of creating a heaven here on earth. Imperfect beings cannot create a heaven. Imperfect beings cannot create anything perfect. Only a perfect being can do so. This does not mean that we should not do the very best we can, of course. As explained above. But when one realizes one’s limitations, and realizes that there is a Source of perfection from Whom a bounty of graces will come, then the very best we can do becomes so very, very, very much greater. The goal of creating a better place for all men is an admirable and righteous one, but if one cuts oneself off from this bounty of graces that is available to help in this admirable and righteous goal, it would seem that one is really more motivated by one’s own prideful ideology than with helping our fellow man…

The Christian knows that both a hospital and a church should be built. While it is very important to care for the physical well-being of our fellow man, it is also very important to care for the spiritual well-being. Never should we neglect the needs of those who require medical care; but again, never should we neglect the needs of those who require healing of the soul. The body is a precious gift, but it is temporary; the soul is eternal.

By the way, who established the first hospitals, as we know them today? It was the Church. Who established libraries, universities, schooling for rich and poor? Who provided the fundamentals for the system of justice upon which our modern system of justice is founded? Who inspired the greatest artists whose masterpieces still mystify and awe people to this day? Again and again, the answer is the Church.

It makes no sense to defer to the assertions of a person who tries to ascribe "the greatest crimes against mankind throughout history" to the inspiration of religion, but fails completely to recognize all documented evidence of the immeasurable role of the Church, the true Church, in the greatest humanitarian achievements throughout our history.

It is hard to understand the motivation for such an illusory presentation of alleged reality... Does one just ignore anything and everything that which does not accommodate one's pre-set ideology? It is certainly more than a fair question, given the manner in which this issue has been introduced and presented here.

You claim that an Atheist wants disease conquered, poverty vanquished, war eliminated. He wants man to understand and love man. He wants an ethical way of life. I’m sure that most Atheists do want all of these things, but do you mean to claim that others do not? I can’t really believe that you do.

If you want to discuss motivation alone, then there is no greater motivation for striving for these things than the knowledge that you will be judged one day, by a supreme Judge Who knows All and will hold you accountable for all that you have done and all that you have not done.

Those who do not allow themselves to believe in the supreme Judge Who knows All, they are the ones who would naturally be more inclined to live for themselves and get all that they can for themselves at this moment. For this moment is all they have, so why squander it on trying to help anyone else when it won’t really matter in the end? If this is it, then by all means, get what you can for yourself right now and don’t waste precious time or effort on the person across the street, or world-wide problems that don’t really affect your short life here on this planet.

I am speaking philosophically, not accusingly. I am just pointing out the illogical conclusions that you have tried to get across with your line of reasoning, on a philosophical level.

I do not doubt you personally when you say you are concerned about all of these things. Most people are, at least on some level. The question is, why? What motivates such concern even in someone who does not claim any belief in a Supreme Judge or ultimate justice? The answer, of course, is the divine spark in us that gives us our humanity and allows us to claim to be made in the image and likeness of God. This divine spark within us is the source of the certain sense of moral conscience that is found innate among humanity, even in those who do not proclaim any belief in it.

But this spark is only the beginning. Our free will is the true test. Our free will allows us to choose to work in unity with this goodness, or to choose to work against it. We can choose do our best, honoring God with our words and our deeds, and imploring God’s graces; or we can cut ourselves off from the graces of God by our own will, refusing to honor Him or even recognize Him. The choice is ours, and like all choices, there are consequences – otherwise the choice has no meaning. The choice is ours. The results are obvious.

Again, I would respectfully implore this consideration… if one’s true concern is for helping one’s fellow man, what could possibly be the motivation for cutting oneself off from the bounty of graces that is available from God above? What could possibly be one’s motivation for offering one’s fellow man only the weak and limited help of flawed and imperfect human beings, instead of doing everything one can to obtain in their efforts the powerful assistance of the All-Perfect being?

Does one refuse to submit to the power and authority of God Almighty, even to bring greater help to those who need it most?

Is one’s pride in one’s ideology getting in the way?

Humility is the beginning of Wisdom.

It would be a great world if every one had one faith... but the story of sarai and hagar Gen 16 and 17 says it cannot be so. Jesus set the christian apart from the jew in belief and traditions (dogma) Paul reiterated that in his letters to asia minor. Later as fortold by god, the arabs... sons of ishmael parted from god and chose their own path.... to strive and contend with the chosen people, jews, until the end of time. We do not as human beings like it but it is biblical... and if you believe the bible is god's law, then you must eccept it.

Personally... I strive for peace wherever possible and vote responsibly, but I am only one person.

MGW

When you speak of the church... which church are you refering to? there are many, all differant. You seem to say the hypocrisy isn't a part of the true church... which church is that, I see it in all. I do not mean that derogitorily but truthfully as I see it. This same church you claim created hospitals, schools and such... the first universities of physical science were in Rome, yes, but pre-catholic or even christian in inception. The first library of note, Alexandia was pre-christian as well and dedicated to Neptune god of the sea. Churches often teach a false history to better their image... another point against orginized religion.

But I did hear what you said... so if I were to seek a true faith, I should shun churches as a whole and seek god in the bible alone? But then again, isn't that what Paul said in galations? He was said to be speaking with direct authority from god... would that mean that all orginized religion is not aproved of by god... thus no church is the 'true' church... which then would explain the accusations I do make towards religion.

Man is imperfect, thus everything they strive for is imperfect... by your words... so religion falls in that catagory as well. I understand why people need something to believe in, even me. But thus far, I have seen nothing which would inspire faith (trust). But I have seen many good people, many who are not religious, but merely humans doing the best they can in a harsh world.

MGW

Other religions are false religions, founded by men and not by God. Historical study verifies this. While they may have some good in them, they are instruments of confusion, not of truth.

I understand why you say there cannot be unity. There certainly cannot be unity as matters now stand. The only possible unity, the unity that will last, is the unity that is based upon the truth. We are promised that there will be unity one day, but when and how that will happen is beyond our knowledge.

The Church has two components or natures within it: the divine (the revelation of God, the deposit of faith, with the sanctification of the Holy Spirit) and the human (the believers themselves). Perhaps I should have been more clear about this, but I didn't want to throw too much stuff into the mix all at once. (Okay, you are probably laughing at that, given the length of my post. But believe me, it could have been longer!)

The divine deposit of faith has a perfect source, it does not and cannot inspire evil, and it most certainly has no hypocrisy in it. But when you say you see hypocrisy, I have no doubt of it. That is the other component or nature of the Church: the human beings who make up the "faithful" here on earth. Where there are human beings, there will be human failings, even with the graces that comes from God. We are required to co-operate with these graces, of our own free will, and very often we fail - we choose otherwise.

While on the subject of hypocrisy, I think I should point out that every person, Christian or otherwise, who ever makes a mistake, or who ever falls away from the straight and narrow path, is not automatically a hypocrite. We are not perfect and we (most of us) do not claim to be. We are all human. We all fail sometimes. It does not mean we are hypocrites, if we admit our failings, ask for forgiveness, and strive to do better. We know, at least most of us know, that we as humans have many faults and flaws, and we do not claim otherwise. Only God is perfect.

But while we are aware of human failings, we have to remember that we do not throw away the whole Church, with its revealed deposit of faith (the divine nature) just because its human nature displays human failings. The actions of any human being do not diminish even one iota the truth of the divine revelation, guarded and treasured and proclaimed by the Church that was founded by God.

Again, perhaps I should have been more clear. I did not claim that the Church "created" universities, libraries, etc. but that the Church took on the work of establishing them. I know that these existed before. But the Church was responsible for establishing countless numbers of these institutions - in places they would not otherwise have been, giving access to people who otherwise would not had the opportunity. And the Church was responsible for making improvements to these institutions to give better access to all people, rather than just the privileged. The Church established various religious orders for these specific purposes, teaching and nursing and so on, to try to reach especially those who needed such services but would otherwise have been deprived. And that does not even touch upon the Church's contribution to art in every form, and to the structure of civil society, and on and on...

The point I was making was the historical evidence of the truly magnificent scope of the achievements of the Church in providing for and inspiring the betterment of mankind. Something that would seem to be an important consideration for one whose main assertion about religion (all religion)was that it is the cause of crimes against humanity...

The true Church has no need to teach a false history.

There is a true Church, and God is not found in the Bible alone. Christ Himself established the Church, gave it a structure, gave it authority, and promised to be with it always. “I will not leave you orphaned.”

Since you brought it up, I will address this issue in a certain amount of depth. Not all the depth it deserves, but hopefully enough depth for this forum, to give you an idea of why there really is one true Church.

(You asked for it!)

What is the Church of Christ?

The Church is that visible society upon earth which was founded by Jesus Christ, guaranteed by Him to exist all days until the end of the world, and sent by Him to teach all nations with His own authority. It is one definite society for man’s spiritual good, and its members are bound together by the profession of the same and complete Christian faith, by the same worship, and by submission to the same spiritual authority.

The explicit steps of Christ in the establishing of an authoritative hierarchy are clear. Christ chose certain special men. “You have not chosen Me; but I have chosen you.” Jn. XV, 16. He gave them His own mission. “As the Father hath sent Me, I also send you.” Jn. XX, 21. This commission included: His teaching authority - “Teach all nations… whatsoever I have commanded you.” Matt. XXVIII, 19-20; His power to sanctify – “Baptizing them,” Matt. XXVIII, 19; forgiving sin - “Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven,” Jn. XX, 23; offering sacrifice - “Do this for a commemoration of Me.” 1Cor. XI, 24; His legislative or disciplinary power – “He who hears you, hears Me, and he who despises you despises Me,” Lk. X, 16; “Whatsoever you shall bind on earth, shall be bound also in Heaven,” Matt. XVIII, 18; “If a man will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen,” Matt. XVIII, 17.

The Apostles exercised these powers from the beginning. Thus we read in the Acts of the Apostles, “They were all persevering in the doctrine of the Apostles,” II, 42. St. Paul himself did not hesitate to excommunicate the incestuous Corinthian. I Cor. V, 3-5. He had that power as a bishop of the Church of Christ, and he exercised it. And he wrote to the Hebrews, “Obey your prelates, and be subject to them.” Heb. XIIII, 17.

One may say that they do not believe it necessary to be subject to any visible organization, but they should pay attention to the words of Christ. He thought it necessary, and as God Almighty He has the right to map out the kind of religion we must accept.

In 1 Timothy 3:15 we see that the Church is called “the pillar and ground of the truth.” So Jesus Christ most clearly did establish an authoritative teaching Church which was commissioned to teach “all nations.” (Matt. 28:19). Elsewhere this same Church received Christ’s promise that the gates of Hell would not prevail against it (Matt. 16:18), that He would always be with it (Matt. 28:20), and that He would give it the Holy Spirit to teach it all truth. (John 16:13). To St. Peter, Our Lord said: “And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and, whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.” (Matt. 16:19). It is plainly evident from these passages that Our Lord emphasized the authority of His Church and the role it would have in safeguarding and defining the Deposit of Faith. It is also evident from these passages that this same Church would never teach error in its doctrine — even temporarily — for then it would not be this “pillar and ground of the truth”.

The Church then is not only those true believers who are united as Christ’s Mystical Body, but it is also a visible, historical entity as well, an organization which can trace its lineage in an unbroken line back to the Apostles themselves, and thus to Christ. Hence its divine, rather than human, origin.

In Matthew 18:15-18 we see Christ instructing His disciples on how to correct a fellow believer. It is extremely telling in this instance that Our Lord identifies the Church as the final authority to be appealed to… Christ Himself says that if an offending brother “will not hear the Church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican” (Matt. 18:17) — that is, as an outsider who is lost. Moreover, Our Lord then solemnly re-emphasizes the Church’s teaching authority in verse 18 by repeating His earlier statement about the power to bind and loose (Matt. 16:18-19), directing it this time to the Apostles as a group rather than just to Peter: “Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven.” (Matt. 18:18).

The “Church” has to be a visible, tangible entity established in a hierarchical fashion. Otherwise, how would anyone have known to whom the above mentioned wrongdoer should be referred? A wrongdoer cannot “hear” each and every believer who existed, hoping that there would be unanimity among them regarding the issue at hand. The inherent absurdity of this scenario is readily apparent. The only way we can make sense of Our Lord’s statement here is to acknowledge that there was a definite organization, with positions of authority readily identifiable, to which an appeal could be made and from which a decisive judgment could be had.

"There shall be one fold and one shepherd." (John 10:16). "Careful to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. One body and one Spirit; as you are called in one hope of your calling. One Lord, one faith, one baptism. One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in us all." (Eph. 4:3-6).

“These things Jesus spoke, and lifting up His eyes to Heaven, He said…Holy Father, keep them in My Name whom Thou hast given Me; that they may be One, as We also are. . . . sanctify them in Truth. Thy word is Truth . . . that they all may be One, as Thou, Father, in Me, and I in Thee; that they also may be One… in Us . . . I in them, and Thou in Me; that they may be made perfect in One." (John 17:1-23)

True religion does not divide. It unifies all people in the Truth. It is evil that divides men, by using men to proclaim false religions which pretend to be equal with the one true Church – the Church established by God Himself while here on earth.

You say that you have seen many good people, many who are not religious, but merely humans doing the best they can in a harsh world. I understand this. I know people whom I consider good people who are not religious. But the truth remains, and if one is really doing the best one can, then the search for truth is part of their struggle.

Thanks for being willing to hear me out. I truly hope this has given you a different perspective at least on these eternal questions and eternal truths.

You have given me a bit to think about, as a christian, you understand these things taught to you by someone you trust and respect. I mean no disrespect but, how can I, being on the outside looking in... discern truth, or a true church? I do see some churches doing good works but it's like trying to staunch a hemorrhage with a bandaide while other churches spend more time telling people of their good works then actually doing them.

Thanks to Raysette Shade, a few weeks ago I started going to a local Baptist church but it's not making sense to me... it seems the more I know, the less I want to join in any religion. Perhaps God is a figment of imagination I was once much more firm that there was no god... but if he is real, I can't find him.

MGW

An article in National Geographic several years ago, provided a penetrating picture of God's wings.

After a forest fire in Yellowstone National Park, forest rangers began their trek up a mountain to assess the inferno's damage.

One ranger found a bird literally petrified in ashes, perched statuesquely on the ground at the base of a tree.

Somewhat sickened by the eerie sight, he knocked over the bird with a stick.

When he gently struck it, three tiny chicks scurried from under their dead mother's wings.

The loving mother, keenly aware of impending disaster, had carried her offspring to the base of the tree and had gathered them under her wings, instinctively knowing that the toxic smoke would rise.

She could have flown to safety but had refused to abandon her babies. Then the blaze had arrived and the heat had scorched her small body, the mother had remained steadfast.

Because she had been willing to die, those under the cover of her wings would live.

"He will cover you with his feathers, and under his wings you will find refuge." (Psalm 91:4)

AMEN

As Mystic Golden Wolf, well, religion is simple yet complex. I suggest going to a Catholic priest and explicitly telling him you don't intend to convert, but just want to know more about religion. I don't know about where you live, but the Catholic priests here are pretty nice and don't go up in your face.

MGW

In short I am wasting my time with any faith at all. That clears it up for me...

MGW

I was not always in the place I am now, either. Every one of us has some kind of journey to take. Perseverance is essential.

Is there a God? If so, has He revealed Himself to humanity? How do we know this? What is His revelation? Where can it be found? What does this revelation mean to our lives? What does this revelation compel from us?

There are answers to all of these questions. Real answers.

Of course, in the search for answers, it is almost certain that one will come across false information as well as true information... how to know which is which? But truth supports itself, and error does not. If one studies and observes and questions and analyzes, with perseverance, and with the sincere will to know the truth, the error will fall away as unsupported, self-contradictory and unsubstantiated. The truth will remain.

The answers will never be found in merely looking at people. People are imperfect, and no human being, even those most holy and charitable of heart, will be able to fully demonstrate God's truth. If one looks for the answers only in the actions of other human beings, then the answers will never be found. God's truth is divine and eternal, beyond the actions or behaviours of flawed and finite human beings.

You ask why there are so many religions in the world if there is one God and one truth. A very reasonable question.

This is the confusion of thought that I alluded to before. One of the marks of evil in the world is confusion of thought. If there were only good in the world, there would be only one religion. All would be united in the true faith, which contains the true and complete revelation of God to mankind. But there is not only good in the world, as we well know.

There is a reason that Satan, the personification of evil, is known as "the great deceiver". He is unrelenting in his desire to keep the truth hidden from humanity, and he is brilliant in his methods. False religions, some great and some small, but altogether almost too numerous to imagine, are the dismal result.

If I'm not mistaken, I think you are questioning how any religion can be called the "one true Church" when the declared adherents of this religion do not follow the laws of the Church perfectly, or even marginally, in some cases.

But God does not force obedience. We have free will, because we are made to love God and love each other, and love has no meaning if it is forced. Forced love is not love at all. So for our love - and thereby our very lives - to have meaning, we must have free will. All of us.

Belief in the true revelation and adherence to the true faith does not obliterate one's free will. God's graces are bountifully bestowed upon us if we strive to do good and ask for His assistance, but we do not become automatons. We still make choices, and the fact remains that it is difficult to always do good, whereas it is generally very easy to fall into evil. We are all capable of failing at any time in any place, and of course we so very often do just that. (The good news is that God forgives - if we admit our failings, if we take responsibility and do not try to blame others, if we ask humbly for forgiveness, and if we earnestly intend to make the effort to do better.)

Again, looking at people will never bring answers. Human behaviour will always fall short. Perfection is not to be found in people, but rather in God. Perfection is in His revelation, the divine deposit of faith which was given by God to humanity and which is contained in the religion He founded - the only religion which was founded directly by God Himself rather than by any human being - the one true Church.

Abaddon

I will not lie to you. Some of the stuff done in the name of Jesus and God don't follow Jesus' teachings. No. Murder, rape, and theft are never truly done in the name of God. Those who do wrong in the name of God, are not really doing it in the name of God. It is really by the Devil's name they do these things.

1) No God (or deity), no need to worry about an afterlife (or afterdeath) or of eternal consequences for one's actions in life. In short, without God, no one would hold you, eternally, accountable for your actions. In short, no Eternal Legislator, Executor, or Judiciary.

2) From prior statement, no afterlife (or afterdeath), means life ends at death and consciousness doesn't continue on. Morality is, then, simply a facade made by "the Man" to keep society in order, in other words, nothing is really good or bad.

3) From Statement Two, if nothing is really good or bad, then that means that all actions are neither condemnable nor justifiable. They are just...actions. Actions that have only transient consequences and therefore, no eternal impact upon man or mankind. The act of helping an old lady across the street is not good. Conversely, the action of pushing the old lady into oncoming traffic and letting her get run over by cars is not bad. Just as much, the decision to not act at all could not be called, "uncharitable" nor "time-efficient". It is just an act or non-act. Therefore, there are no standards of morality upon actions or non-actions.

4) No standards of morality on actions, non-actions, attitudes and so forth, means that everything is permissible and that, should one decide on whether to live morally or live hedonistically, one would opt to do the latter rather than the former. This should, therefore, give great amounts of pleasure for the person, up to a point. The person living in this latter form of life would find him or herself at a state where each pleasure would only bring a marginal benefit that is decreasing as it increases. Up to a point, marginal benefit would start to decrease and decrease increasingly. Up to a point, the person would abandon one pleasure in favor of another and would proceed to go through a gamut of pleasures that one is able to do within given budget and health. The person could, if wise enough, realize the hollowness of the life lived.

5) Assume, however, that the person does not opt to live hedonistically, but rather morally (i.e. erect a standard of morality according to his or her beliefs) or accept the morality of society, even if knowing that it is all a lie that the "idiot" masses swallow. The person would attempt to live morally and attempt to hold onto standards. If low enough to be barely distint from hedonism, the person, may, perhaps, achieve the goal of holding onto their "morality" even if it is false. If held high enough to be considered "noble" or "humbling" or "moral", then person may attempt to live under "moral" code. Attempts at living under a "moral" code would reveal the person to be deficient in being able to keep / uphold "moral" code and, if person is wise enough, realize that he or she has not lived consistantly with the "moral" code. The person would, then, realize the inability to hold onto a moral code. This would bring with it realization of the futility of holding up the code.

6) Both attempts to live such lives would result in failure, either to have all the pleasures and find nothing pleases you anymore or to have the "honor" and pride and distinction of living with a "moral" code. Since both courses of actions are transient(the Sun is going to burn out in mere billions of years), their actions, therefore, are meaningless, without eternal consequences or substance. Purpose, therefore, is rendered obsolete, since man, living in a random universe, is at the mercy of chance, and impersonal forces that do not give a flip as to whether one lived morally or hedonistically. With a universe without God, life doesn't matter at all, and life, lived or unlived, moral or immoral, for betterment of humanity or damnation of humanity, has no more meaning, no more purpose, no more substance. Life is a waking death, with each day bringing new challanges that, if they don't kill the person, only prolongs the inevitable.

7) Summation: No God, no afterlife, no fear of judgement or joy of achieveing heaven or nirvana, no need to live by the rules save the one that society imposes (even if they are mere illusions and even then, those who defy the "laws" only defy what is not real), no reason to live morally, one "reason" to live hedonistically only to find disillusionment and despair, no reason to live at all. If there is no God, then everything is permissible, for nothing has meaning, nothing has reason, everything is bereft of hope.

Conclusion: If a universe without God forms a life like this, then that means that we, humans, are all living irrationally, as if purpose exists in life, and we should all be better off dead and in non-conscious and in a non-living state (i.e. suicide). Nihilism is the only course of life that man has to opt for, since every other system of belief is false...assuming that God is nonexistant.

And the world?

"This is the way the world ends

This is the way the world ends

This is the way the world ends

Not with a bang but a whimper"

- T.S. Eliot -

The fact that man, however, needs purpose and hope and grace and structure in his life, at the very least, supports the belief that there is a God. With God, suffering makes sense, pain makes sense, pleasures make sense, and purpose makes sense. If God exists, then man does not need to be a nihilist.

Furthermore, Jesus died for our sins. Not so that men could commit atrocious blasphemies in His name as was in the Crusades. If anything, man is responsible for every evil thing that he or she has done.

Question: You challanged that organized religion was a detriment. Someone else countered this claim, citing examples, and also explained that men would twist religion for their own purposes. Here is my question: "What good did "no religion" or Atheism do for society and how is it not a detriment?"

First off, that is an opinion. Second off, if opinions are neither wrong nor right, then that means that you can't qualify said statement above as true.

Also, if there are false beliefs, then wouldn't that mean that there also exists a true belief?

noun [C] a system of religious belief, or the people who worship according to such a system of belief.

occult

( the occult ) the knowledge and study of that which is magical, mystical or supernatural.

religion

a particular system of belief or worship, commonly refering to Christianity or Judaism.

Cult and religion mean the same thing although most people treat only the top six cults as religions or faiths.

Abaddon

Opinion: a belief or judgement which seems likely to be true, but which is not based on proof. In short neither right now wrong until evidence validates or refutes the statement.

Religion falls in that catagory...

Abaddon

Abaddon

And the answer is no, GK must like the taste of toe jam, sticking foot in mouth as often as GK appears to... I am a teacher, I expect that sort of behavior from a nine yr-old who doesn't like fractions rather than someone of at least thirteen years, which is the requirement for this site.

The internet is a big pond, if you can't swim... go back to the kiddie pool. Failing that... make an attempt to at least try to appear intelligent and mature.

Abaddon

Abaddon

Abaddon

Abaddon

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