Since when did the origonal trilogy suck? People! The origonals is what advertised the prequals! If it weren't for the origonals, the new movies wouldn't even exsist! And think about it; Luke whines for one second in ANH. Anakin whines all through AOTC! No one is braking anyone's heart, we've got Han. Han! The cocky, all around cool guy that makes the origonal trilogy what it is! Don't you look my words in the eye, and tell me that the origonal trilogy sucks, or we may have a REAL war starting!!

Yeah, Anakin DID have a lot to whine about. Like, remember in ROTS when those Jedi come to the senate to arrest Palpatine? Palpatine took like three of the Jedi out in five seconds. If those dudes were masters, no wonder Anakin whined!

I may be a girl, but I know it when guys do their job. And in Star Wars, the guys do their job. Don't you look me in the eye and tell me that all the guys do is whine!

And *looks pained* Psi Fi, I'm not a guy. Whatever gave you that impression?

I do agree that the Jedi Council's attitudes weren't entirely correct. But I do believe it was more Anakin's character than anything else that ended up turning him to the darkside.

I can't agree with you about Anakin's character, though. He was such a great little kid and he had so much potential for and a desire for good! It's the responsibility of adults to form a child's character and the Jedi got hold of Anakin young enough to have a tremendous influence on him! I know they usually got the padawans much younger, but nine is still fairly young! I'm not trying to absolve Anakin completely (he was an adult and made an adult choice), but it's hard to make the right choice, when you don't have anyone to confide in. Unfortunately for Anakin, the only confidant he had, the only one who was really *listening* to him, was the Sith!

I can't agree that his only confidant was Palpatine. I think it was Anakin who *thought* his only confidant was the Sith. Obi-Wan was more than there for him, I'm not sure why Anakin thought otherwise prior to where he was used by the Council to ask Anakin to spy on Palpatine, and if you won't agree with that assesment, he was married to Padme. He should at least have trusted her more to listen. I think she more than proved her love and care for him, simply by agreeing to keep their marriage a secret.

I can't say that the Council wasn't partially at fault, but a few old jedi who can't realize that change is necessary were not the only people he had for influence. So I do think in the end, turning to the dark side was really just Anakin's bad decision. I don't think the council was wrong by saying he was too old. Simply by knowing such a strong attachment as his mother's love set him up to be unable to let go, which in the end was his problem.

Here's a fanfic challenge: How different, if at all, would things have been if he'd gone to Padme, instead of Mace Windu, with the news that Palpatine was the Sith Lord?

As for Obi-wan, yes, Anakin *probably* could have confided in him. Maybe. The problem is Obi-wan held the Council in far too much awe. Even as a padawan, he sided with the Council against his own master! He never once stood up to the Council when he disagreed with them. I know those people were his heroes and he grew up with them as his leaders, but come on! He was *on* the Council! He should have stood up for Anakin more, especially on the issue of Palpatine! Anakin probably knew from long experience that Obi-wan wanted him to be a proper little Jedi in proper awe of the Council. bleagh So no, I can't blame Anakin for not confiding in him.

Yes, in the end, Anakin's fall was his own decision. Nothing can or should absolve him of that. There were other things he could have done. However, there were several points in RotS where the *Council* could have stepped in and helped him, where I believe they could have prevented his fall...and they failed. So, I don't let Anakin's guilt absolve them of theirs either!

It wouldn't have gone much different because if it had the origonal tirilogy wouldn't make sense.

The problem with Anikan was that he thought he was better then everybody (Obi-wan respceted that there were Jedei better then him but that clouded his judgement about Anikan), Palpatine knew that and used it against him. Anikan was never a true Jedi because he had emotions like that other Jedi didn't. I always thought the sith had the right idea by playing off of their emotions. Acording to the Jedi their not supposed to do that but thats not always the case, In episode I Obi-wan had the strennght to kill Darth Maul because he was upset about Qui-gon Jin. In episode II Padme and Anikan go to "rescue" Obi-wan because Padme (this one was mostly her fault) was sure the other Jedi couldn't make it on time and they were afriad he would die. In episode III Obi-wan didn't stand up in the council because he was in awe of them too much (I would call that emotions) and he didn't kill Anikan thus ending the future evils he would do because he felt like they were like brothers and couldn't do it. The council could have down something to stop Anikan's fall but it wasn't entirely there fault. The whole Jedi way was screwed up and its what screwed Anikan up.

Then in the origional trilogy you had Luke who knew barly anything about being a Jedi and should have taken it as a sign when both his Jedi teachers died.

I don't know if it would have made a difference or not. Maybe the reason Lucas didn't have Anakin go to her *is* because it would have made the original trilogy not happen. So I guess I need to add an alternate universe tag to the fanfic challenge.

I mostly agree with you on this last part. Anakin had been told he was the Chosen one and he had more power at a younger age than any other Jedi. The only ones more powerful than him were experienced Jedi masters and it was probably pretty obvious that he would eventually surpass them. So, yeah, his head was swollen. Obi-wan took modesty to an annoying extreme. He let the Council do his thinking for him, even when his instincts were right and his were wrong.

The problem with the Sith and their playing off their emotions is they play off all of their *negative* emotions! That is what I believe was truly meant by balancing the Force. If the Sith are playing off hate, anger, and fear, the Jedi should be using love, compassion, and bravery...not doing the Vulcan thing and surpressing their emotions! So, I agree with you that the Jedi were messed up and therefore messed up Anakin. However, I also agree with you that it wasn't entirely the Council's fault. Anakin made several bad choices, the decision to go to the Darkside and helping destroy the Jedi, including the younglings, only being the last and worst.

Um. What should Luke have taken his teacher's death as a sign of? I think one of the reasons Obi-wan and Yoda didn't tell Luke about the Jedi is he didn't want them repeating their past mistakes.

*blinks* What fanfic challenge?

Well, Obi-Wan didn't always let the council control him. A really big example of that was when he insisted on taking Anakin as his padawan after Qui-Gon's death- to which Yoda most notably did not approve.

I don't think you can necessarily call all of the emotions the Sith play off as negative, espeically since Anakin, in the begining, was so heavily influenced by his overwhelming feeling of love. And fear can be useful if used correctly. Anger is productive from time to time. The only one decidedly dark is hate, and even then...I don't believe the Jedi were wrong in not being ruled by their "positive" emotions. Supressing them is wrong, but I don't believe that's really what they were aiming for. Power corrupts, the desire to do good can easily go wrong, and since the being able to use the Force is such a great power, I do think the Jedi had the right idea, I just think they may have gone a step to far. To be protectors of the universe, they needed to be able to take a step back and see the larger picture. If all they did was get severly attached to one or two people, their judgment would have been clouded and the universe probably would have fallen under the control of the "dark" side much sooner. Just look at Anakin, for example. Too much power, far too influenced by his emotions.

*grins* He should have taken it as a sign he might want to look into a new career.

Um. The problem is a person's normal character gets consumed by the Darkside. So, positive emotions and intentions become evil. Love becomes twisted into possessiveness. Brotherhood becomes rivalry. Trust becomes paranoia. The Jedi must avoid or at least *control* fear, anger, and aggression, because they are doorways for the Darkside to influence them.

I'm not saying the Jedi should give in completely to passion, but they should use and acknowledge, instead of completely supress their positive emotions. It's the difference between Luke and Vader. Both were very passionate men, but one was Light and one was Dark. Even in the OT, you see hints that Obi-wan and Yoda are uncomfortable with the strength of Luke's passions...yet, Luke makes it work. The problem with the Jedi in the PT was they were so busy looking at the "big picture" that individuals no longer meant much to them. I agree they couldn't just focus on one or two individuals that they had particular feelings for. However, they were perfectly willing to let individuals die, if it preserved their "non-attachment." Shmi is a good example. They could have rescued her. They just didn't see any reason to.

You're right. But only because in the Star Wars world good and evil are, for the most part, very black and white. Sith are evil. Jedi are good. End of story. Anakin/Vader is the only person to ever fall in the half-way in between category in the movies.

They couldn't have rescued Shmi. They *could not have*. There was no pressing evil on Tatoonie that threatened the Republic, ergo no jedi there. By the time Anakin started having dreams about her, the Sand People had her and that was the end. She was going to die regardless of whether or not he and Obi-Wan charged off after Anakin's *dreams* the day after he had his first. The jedi, especially as a whole, didn't let her die. If anything, you can maybe blame Obi-Wan for not believing his student's dreams about the mother he missed were anything more than dreams.

Actually, in the scene where Anakin and Obi-wan discuss his dream, I got the strong feeling that he had been having these dreams for awhile...hadn't she been missing for months? I think the dreams started right away. Obi-wan *had* to know there was a chance Anakin's mother was in danger, but he didn't want him dwelling on it...or to do anything about it. For me, that means he *let her die,* just because rescuing her didn't fit into his "big picture" view of the his job. Teaching Anakin non-attachment was more important to him than saving a woman's life. Sad. So, maybe the Jedi as a whole weren't responsible, but the Council was. And, from Anakin's pov, Obi-wan was his primary example of who the Jedi are.

A month. She'd been missing of a month and that's how long Anakin's dreams had been going on. And yes, I'm sure Obi-Wan knew there was a chance that Anakin's dream were true. Sort of like he knew there was a chance that Palpatine was evil, like he knew there was something wrong with the Jedi, like he knew...anyway, Obi-Wan was only one man, who'd never seen before hand that there was anything to say that Anakin had any sort of prophetic dreams. He was trying to teach Anakin the jedi way- to be concerned with the big picture, with the good of the universe as a whole. And yes, that included trying to get him to be more concerned with the imminent threat of the Seperatists than the fact that his mother may or may not be dying off on a remote world. So neither he nor the Council is to blame. They were doing what they had been taught, what they believed fully was right, and no one can fault them for that.

LOL Ummmmm, nope. Not gonna. Just kidding.

No seriously, Obi-wan himself said they were the keepers of peace and justice in the Old Republic. As for them not doing the job of soldiers, until AotC, the Republic didn't *have* soldiers, per se. So any of those jobs *would* have fallen to the Jedi! Individual planets/rulers might have had armies and security services, but not the Republic as a whole.

The reason there weren't enough Jedi was because of the no-marriage rule...and I believe that *is* part of what killed them! They at one time did have, I believe, the manpower and had done exactly that...kept peace and order, including doing things like wiping out slavery. The problem is after the no-marriage rule, they become fewer and weaker and had to start restricting their activities...allowing the Darkside to spread! If they had the numbers they needed they would have been more effective and been able to focus on all injustice, not just the big picture stuff.

Plus, remember, they thought the Sith were gone at the beginning of PM! Until that movie, there really wasn't any "big picture" stuff for them to take care of! There were no galactic threats. The Republic had enjoyed thousands of years of peace! Maybe, maybe, "wiping out evil and injustice where they found it" is a bit overboard. Maybe. But, can you picture *Luke* turning his back on that?? Yet, the Jedi did. And, maybe it was because they lacked the manpower. I think the no-marriage rule was at the heart of a lot of their problems. Even if they didn't remove slavery from Tattoine as a whole, cause they were very busy by that point, they could have sent in a team to rescue Shmi...who wasn't even a slave at that point!

Obi-Wan was only one man, who'd never seen before hand that there was anything to say that Anakin had any sort of prophetic dreams. I strongly disagree with that! Anakin was his padawan. He should have been *very* aware of Anakin's areas of strength in the Force and I think prophetic visions were fairly common amongst the Jedi! Remember, Yoda said that threw the Force you would see the past, the future, old friends, long gone... He had every reason to suspect that the dreams were a warning!

And yes, that included trying to get him to be more concerned with the imminent threat of the Seperatists than the fact that his mother may or may not be dying off on a remote world. Ah, but that's the problem. When you become so focussed on the "big picture," that individual lives are no longer important, then you sacrifice a lot of what makes you human...or I guess in SW lingo "sentient." People should care about individuals, too, whether you're a cop, a Jedi, or a politician. I think that "big picture" attitude is one of the things that made it so easy for Palpatine to turn the galaxy against the Jedi! The individual person just couldn't connect to them!

But, what they believed was wrong and led to their downfall. Yoda, in the RotS book admits that the Jedi didn't change in the ways they needed to, because he wouldn't allow them to change. The Council were the leaders and the leaders are always responsible, even if not necessarily to blame, which I think they were.

Individual planets/rulers might have had armies and security services, but not the Republic as a whole.

Then it should have fallen to the rulers of the planets to fix the problems in their immediate society. Was there slavery? Injustice? Then the rulers of the planets should have been the ones to institue the change. The rulers were the problems? Then it falls to the citizens of each indivial world to bring about the change. They lived in this enormous democracy. If the all the people were really so bothered by how things were going, they should have tried to effect change on their worlds. Perhaps they, too, relied a tad too much on the jedi to come and save them of their problems, which in turn might have been part of the problem that came about in the Order itself.

The reason there weren't enough Jedi was because of the no-marriage rule...and I believe that *is* part of what killed them!

Sorry, I just have to ask when the marriage rule came about, because I was under the impression that it's been there pretty much all along.

But even if it wasn't, I don't think it's what brought about their downfall. If anything, it's probably one of the things that kept the Order going for so long. If the jedi were married, and tasked to guard and serve the entire Republic, in a crisis who would they be their first concern? The random stranger over there in the corner, of the man/woman they loved? Like I said before, I don't think they were necessarily entirely wrong about the attachment thing. Perhaps they took it a step too far, but the basic premise seems to be a good idea, considering their career path.

Plus, remember, they thought the Sith were gone at the beginning of PM! Until that movie, there really wasn't any "big picture" stuff for them to take care of!

Even if there weren't anything Sith, that doesn't mean the big picture disappears. Even without the Sith there was a balance of good and evil to maintain. There were conflicts between waring worlds to take care of. Huge political disputes to help settle peacefully so the Republic wouldn't disolve in a chaotic fashion. The overall good of the Republic, was the big picture for the jedi, whether or not there were Sith to fight.

Remember, Yoda said that threw the Force you would see the past, the future, old friends, long gone... He had every reason to suspect that the dreams were a warning!

Yoda also said that by trying to prevent the visions, a lot of the time you end up causing them to come true. So even if Obi-Wan should have known they were some kind of warning, he was also sensible enough to leave them alone! Remember how when Anakin tried to save Padme from his dreams? Who's to say that if Obi-Wan had interferred, things wouldn't have ended the same anyway? Or possibly even worse?

I think that "big picture" attitude is one of the things that made it so easy for Palpatine to turn the galaxy against the Jedi! The individual person just couldn't connect to them!

Even if the jedi had taken the time to save every cat in a tree, the individual person still wouldn't have been able to connect with them, because a normal person can't feel the Force, can't even begin to comprehend was it's like. There still would have been that barrier. Especially since a lot of people are jealous of power, so I still think that it would have been easy for Palpatine to turn the galaxy against the Jedi. Especially as he is an evil master mind. That tends to work in his favor.

But, what they believed was wrong and led to their downfall.

I won't say all of their beliefs were necessarily correct. Some were a bit archaic, perhaps, but not everything they believed was wrong. You can't really generalize about beliefs like that, especially since beliefs themseleves are so deeply personal, ingrained opinions if you will. What is wrong to you, was right to them.

The Council were the leaders and the leaders are always responsible, even if not necessarily to blame, which I think they were.

I don't believe that leaders are ever truly at fault. The general population is to blame. If the jedi was unhappy with the way they were being led, the rest of them far outnumbered the Council. They could have changed something. If you must find the jedi totally at fault, don't blame the Council solely. Blame everyone else along with them.

Sorry, I just have to ask when the marriage rule came about, because I was under the impression that it's been there pretty much all along. They never really said, but I seriously doubt it was all along. It's all about biology. If you take a trait, like a high midichlorian count, and don't allow people with that trait to procreate, then that trait is going to become weaker and weaker within the given populace. There's a really good description of that in a fanfic, but I can't remember where. If I find it, I'll post it.

There were conflicts between waring worlds to take care of. Huge political disputes to help settle peacefully so the Republic wouldn't disolve in a chaotic fashion. I don't think individual planets in the Republic went to war anymore than individual states of the U.S. go to war with each other. The types of conflicts you're describing would have been settled in the Senate. Yes, Jedi might have gotten involved as arbitrators, but that wasn't all they did. This was a peaceful time! Again, the Jedi should have been more numerous to handle a variety of tasks.

Yoda also said that by trying to prevent the visions, a lot of the time you end up causing them to come true. Actually, he never said that. He wanted Luke to finish his training first...that he wasn't ready! Well...maybe, maybe not. Yeah, he almost died, but he discovered a truth they were hiding that led to a compassion that saved a soul. And Yoda definitely never said that to Anakin! Explaining the concept of a self-fulfilling prophecy would have been much better advise than the nonsense he actually said. He just said to let it go, don't worry about it! ::shakes head:: Bad advice, in my opinion.

Especially as he is an evil master mind. That tends to work in his favor. Maybe, but they did nothing to counteract that. They don't need to "rescue every kitten in a tree," but they did need to value individual lives!

Some were a bit archaic, perhaps, but not everything they believed was wrong. You can't really generalize about beliefs like that, especially since beliefs themseleves are so deeply personal, ingrained opinions if you will. No, not everything they believed was wrong. I wasn't trying to be that general. I do think there were one or two concepts that they held or took to extremes. The non-attachment rule could have been okay...if it had meant balancing their feelings with their duty. No, they shouldn't just hare off and save only their loved ones. But, they shouldn't just let anyone who isn't strategically important die, either. They needed to place more importance on individuals, without letting that overwhelm them. I think that sort of balance is one of the key concepts of the movie saga.

I don't believe that leaders are ever truly at fault. Um. I could never agree with that. Leaders make mistakes. And, the Jedi served a democracy, but they weren't one. If you didn't go along with the Council and follow them, you could be removed from the Order. Maybe, the Jedi could have rose up against the Council if enough of them had recognized the mistakes being made. But, there were so few of them and they were so far flung that never had a chance to happen. Probably most of the Jedi at the time had only the most general idea of what was truly happening and probably got conflicting reports. I do think whoever is in charge has the responsibility to keep the organization healthy and I think the Council failed at that.

Not really, I mean, look at the US. Each state has their own seperate little government to take care of state problems, the Republic was just like that, simply on a much larger scale. The president and congress in the US don't have to make every decision, nor correct every problem within each state, that falls to the governor and the state senate (right? The states have senates?).

If you take a trait, like a high midichlorian count, and don't allow people with that trait to procreate, then that trait is going to become weaker and weaker within the given populace.

I don't think that having a high midichlorian count is necessarily a trait like hair or eye color. After all, all of the jedi had parents who were not jedi, so I don't really think that would have happened. Because look at the biggest exception to that rule: Anakin himself. The midichlorian are symbiots with humans. I don't think your parent's count necessarily effects your own.

The types of conflicts you're describing would have been settled in the Senate. Yes, Jedi might have gotten involved as arbitrators, but that wasn't all they did. This was a peaceful time!

How can you say it was a peaceful time? From the moment Anakin entered the jedi order, actually even a few years before that, there were certainly big problems brewing in the Senate! The planets were getting disgruntled with the way the Republic was being run. I think you're underestimating the problems that was causing.

Actually, he never said that.

Oh. Really? I could have sworn he said that to Anakin in the third movie. *shrugs* I have been known to make things up as I remember. Perhaps its time to re-watch Revenge of the Sith.

but they did need to value individual lives!

I bet more of them did than we've been led to believe. Mace Windu, perhaps, cared first and foremost for the Republic in its entiretly. Yoda, yes, was all about the greater good than individuals. But there were a lot of Jedi who we never met in the movies. Perhaps the books are only secondary canon to the movies, but those do have examples of jedi who cared for individuals just as much as the greater good.

They needed to place more importance on individuals, without letting that overwhelm them. I think that sort of balance is one of the key concepts of the movie saga.

I agree completely on that point. The Jedi's biggest problem is that it's hard to find that balance, which is probably why they cut out attachment all together.

I do think whoever is in charge has the responsibility to keep the organization healthy and I think the Council failed at that.

I don't think we're ever going to really agree on this point. I think it's far more important that the group as the whole makes sure that they have leaders that they know *can* keep the organization healthy, and any failure of the leaders is really the failure of the people who let them be in that position.

They all go together well, but separated...It's like a cake. you don't eat raw eggs, flour, and all that alone, you mix it up and get a wonderful cake. Got it?

I mean, what is wrong with the prequels? They're good movies (granted that I have my own reservations about them), but it's just like what you guys have said, You gotta look at the big picture, you know? Personally, having just seen the movies and not read any of the books, what interests me the most is what's not in the movies and what I randomly find on Wookiepedia. And the sad thing is that I am an avid reader. I picked up the novelization of TPM and was thoroughly disgusted (Sorry to anyone who liked it). Someone please tell me that there are better Star Wars books than that out there.

I don't understand how you can compare the prequels and originals too much. They were shot in different time eras, one had better graphics becuase of this, but I DO NOT like all six movies, I'm rather picky when it comes to this. The movies have to be amazing and humorous for me to like them. For me the prequels were, but the oringinals were also amazing, and I can't really decide because one has an upperhand

I agree and thank the genius who created this topic!

I LOVE STAR WARS.....I loved ALL movies (well cept for that dumb animated Clone Wars one...but I never considered it prequel worthy anyway)

So I really hate it when fans hate on the original or the prequel, because I love both.

But to each their own, I guess.

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