Cloud x Aeris - And so we meet only to fall in hate? Forum

Topic: Cloud x Aeris

Oddly enough, despite my dislike for Aeris, I don't hate this pairing. But I'm going to open up another topic because I can. So discuss or not.

#1 Dec 22nd 2005, 9:41pm

Kit Thespian

That's funny, because my views are totally opposite. I like Aeris, but I don't like the Cleris pairing. Why not? I just think the whole pairing is a disaster in the making. I don't think she really loved Cloud like Tifa loved him, and Cloud...Cloud in general is a lawsuit on heroes waiting to happen (lovingly quoting "Why Waist Length?") But this is a take on pairings, not Cloud himself.

Anyhoo, I think Tifa is more suited to Cloud because she is the more likely of the two women to take care of Cloud, and he needs taking care of. Aeris is just too much on the blond. Someone with her personality needs a guy to keep her in line and Cloud is not...that...guy.

#2 Dec 26th 2005, 11:25am

Nando the RPS King

With all his needs and problems, I think any pairing involving Could's a romantic disaster just waiting to happen. Until he comes to terms with his past and stops being so wrapped up in his problems, he won't be able to bring anything to a relationship, and relationships like that just aren't healthy.

#3 Dec 26th 2005, 12:28pm

Nagia

(random pretend-angry gibberish) I thought you hadn't seen ADVENT CHILDREN?!

All I'm going to say about Clerith is:

1. Aeris is dead.

2. If she's dead, and Cloud's in love with her, then either Cloud = Vincent, or Cloud is going to have to kill himself (because ARFs are just PUKE).

3. There is nothing at all romantic about killing yourself. If you WANT to put someone in such a position, you are a sick little puppy.

Also, go read CASE OF TIFA and ON THE WAY TO A SMILE--- which, by the way, are Square canon (how Cloud turned into Emo Kid by AC's start from the personality he'd had in CASE OF TIFA and ON THE WAY TO A SMILE is one of the many mysteries of the universe).

*** Bonus fact: Aeris mentioned that Cloud reminded her of Zack. While this does not score points with me in her favour as a person (I'm sorry, but you just don't TELL messed-up-in-the-head people "yeah, you have the same mannerisms as my DEAD BOYFRIEND", even IF the entire conversation is just a plot device to set up the fact that Cloud ate Zack's brain), it also doesn't mean that she only liked him because of Zack.

#4 Dec 26th 2005, 3:50pm

Nando the RPS King

Nope, still haven't seen it. Why, did my last post come close to something that happens in it?

#5 Dec 26th 2005, 8:58pm

Red is the new Blonde

If I knew how to quote I would, so I'll improvise

"All I'm going to say about Clerith is:

1. Aeris is dead.

2. If she's dead, and Cloud's in love with her, then either Cloud = Vincent, or Cloud is going to have to kill himself (because ARFs are just PUKE)."

"Aeris is dead" - and your point is she's dead, so what, just because she's dead doesn't mean you can stop loving someone

"If she's dead, and Cloud's in love with her, then either Cloud = Vincent." Once again, it is not necrophilic if you love someone that is dead, my uncle is dead and I still love him and miss him and so does his wife, does that make me and her a necrophilic along with the rest of my family that misses him? Because if it does, then about more than half of the world is necrophilic cause someone they love died and they miss them and still love them. HOWEVER it IS necrophilic if a person gets it on with a dead person, and Cloris writers agree that THAT is wrong.

Case of Tifa and On the way to smile is SE canon, but Cloris and CloTi on the other hand aren't SE has never said CloTi was canon, so there is still a possability for Cloris, BUT it never stated Cloris was canon, so CloTi can exist to, so it's fanon.

#6 Dec 31st 2005, 10:40am

Kaj-Nrig

If I knew how to quote I would

Type in: (q)insert quote here(/q)

Just replace the ( and )s with [ and ]. Hope that makes some sense.

"Aeris is dead" - and your point is she's dead, so what, just because she's dead doesn't mean you can stop loving someone

Of course not. But it's also then undeniable that you won't be able to be with him/her/it/them. ("it/them"...) Unless you consider their romantic love to be completely spiritual/psychological, in which case Cloud would become even more messed up than he is already. That's what I think, of course.

1. Calm down.

2. She never said it was necrophilia. She implied that their sexual relationship would be necrophilia (which it would be), and that would be completely wrong, like you said.

3. Sex is important in a relationship, no matter how much they may love each other. It's part of our very basic needs. A romantic relationship in which sex cannot happen is... well, it's hard, to say the least.

Not exactly. Well, yes, it IS fanon, but... not exactly. It's more of an interpetation. Same as everything else that CloTi and Cleris fans do to everything else. The POSSIBILITY is canon, sure, but there really is no "fanon" couple. There are just more hints (and more possibility) of CloTi now, is all.

#7 Jan 01st 2006, 6:56am

Oh god, why does this topic always give me a migraine? Okay. I'm a Cleris, I believe Cloud loved Aeris and Aeris loved Cloud, they had a sweet little growing attraction between them, then Sephiroth came and took her away from him forever. It's not necrofilia to love someone even though they're dead. Necrofilia is having sex with corpses. Two extremely different things people - look it up in a dictionary. I don't care if Tifa has strong feelings for Cloud, he doesn't think the same for her. Sure he doesn't hate her, she's his friend. He just can't love her the way she wants him to, not after all that's happened. This is why after all this time, Cloud's still not with her. Tifa wants Cloud to be there, she wants them to be a family. But what does Cloud do? He goes off on his own, get it lone wolf (cloudy wolf) - he still blames himself for the loss of Aeris, he can't get rid of her memory. If you can't say that he loved her, then I don't know what else to tell you.

I think the love story between the two is my favorite from all square has ever produced. It's tragic, but then again it's not. She's still there, in his heart, she gives him the strength to go on - she was there all along - she never blamed him for anything. It's a beautiful story. You can prefere Tifa to Aeris all you want, you're entitled to your own opinion. But you can't deny the fact that Cloud loved Aeris. I think Cloud loves Tifa too, but not in a romantic way, I think he feels a need to protect her, she's his friend. If you can't see this then I really don't know what else to say. You don't get much do you?

#8 Jan 19th 2006, 8:21pm

You don't get much do you?

Okay, that kind of irked me. As has been stated, there's a lot of open interpretation that can be done with the game. Yes, I see that Cloud maybe blamed himself for Aeris' death. But their "love story?" No, I don't see that at all. I don't hate Cloud x Aeris, because I can understand where people can get that they were paired up.

There's no concrete pairings in FFVII in my opinion. Square, from what I recall never outright said "Yes, Cloud and Aeris were in love." So people can believe what they want.

#9 Jan 19th 2006, 8:59pm

Interpret it all you want, the truth is always there. I don't care how many compliations Square puts out on this silly little game, they're all going to be the same. Notice a pattern? Cloud is always searching for Aeris, in the end he finds that she was there with him to begin with -in his heart, she was his light and so on and so forth. On the other hand, Tifa is always going to be chasing after Cloud, wanting him to be something he's not. And love is a staple in final fantasy games, Squall and Rinoa, Zidane and Garnet, Tidus and Yuna, Cloud and Aeris. Does Square have to come right out and say "Yes, Cloud loved Aeris." No they don't. Why should they? The story has already been told.

#10 Jan 20th 2006, 6:51am

I'm not quite sure what story's been told, but for most people to accept that Cloud loved Aeris, Square would have to come out and say he loved her. They should come out and say it, because then it would lay down this whole love triangle to rest. But they won't because they want people to buy the compilations in the hope that maybe there might be something that gives a concrete couple in FFVII. And I've just recently learned that they did. With Cid and Shera.

I'm pretty open-minded when it comes to Cloud and Aeris. That's all I can say about that for right now, because it's early and I've got to get ready for work.

Edited: Deleted the last part of my post, because I thought about it at work and really something written like that just tends to start trouble. So apologies everyone.

#11 Jan 20th 2006, 7:44am . Edited Jan 20th 2006, 1:40pm

I highly doubt that Square will ever come right out and say, "Yes, Cloud loved Aeris." Why? Because, the love triangle for one. It draws people in. It's been how many years now and we're still talking about it? But know this, for it to be a true love triangle, Cloud would have to love Aeris, or else it would just be a straight line. Another reason. It's a Japanese game, made by you guessed it, Japanese people. I don't know if that many people actually know that much about the Japanese, or their culture, but I do study it so I know a little bit about it. They're much more reserved and conservative as a whole, love is not as much spoken as it is shown. It's the Japanese way, and I digress, but I find it extremely interesting.

Did Square ever say "Tifa loves Cloud." No, not to my knowledge. This is rather implied through her actions around him, we know she has strong feelings for him because we can see it. On the other hand, about Cid x Shera, to me they didn't have to come out and say anything about their relationship because it was all ready implied to me. I already knew.

Cloud holds Aeris close to him, she's still with him in his heart, he searches for her, he wants to see her again, he blames himself for her death, he actually seems a bit obsessive over it if you ask me. If this doesn't imply a strong longing or love for another person, then I don't know what else they can do to show you. I think people choose not to believe Cloud loved Aeris, they choose Tifa over her despite how the story goes. Now I'm not saying they don't have the right to do this. You don't have to like the couple Cloud x Aeris. All I ask is that you accept it for what it is, or at least try to accept it.

I accept Cloud's love for Tifa, he shows her he cares about her through his actions. Although it's not a romantic love, it's not the same kind that he feels towards Aeris. Why do I feel this way? One: He has a chance to be with Tifa, Aeris has been dead two years now. What's stopping him? Maybe the fact that he's still in love with Aeris. I think he's always going to love her, this is why I don't think Cloud and Tifa can ever be together. Two: What's in the past is in the past. Cloud might of had a childhood crush on Tifa, but that's about it. If there truly were a real love between the two, then there would be no question of Aeris. Three: Aeris changed Cloud forever. Notice how he was such a jerk in the beginning, and he acted like he didn't care about the planet. This changed after he met Aeris (remember she's a Cetra and is tied to the planet). He began to care about this stuff after she began to have an effect on him. Another thing (I'm just throwing this in for fun) Eris in Greek mythology is the goddess of strife and discord, now think about how much mythological references final fantasy has in it - a lot - too much for me to name in one sitting. Is this making sense to anyone, or is this just a "we hate Aeris and love Tifa" forum?

#12 Jan 20th 2006, 10:55am

Wallwalker

Did Cloud love Aeris? He acted devastated when she died, so he at least cared for her. Did Aeris love Cloud? Aeris said that she WANTED to love Cloud - that she wanted to get to know the real Cloud - but we don't know how far that went, because we got a fade-to-black after that, and then the plot had to come along and mess things up. Still, it's likely that they would've ended up together if things had gone differently.

On the other hand....

Is Aeris dead? Yeah. Would Aeris want Cloud to pine away in sorrow for the rest of his life because he loves her and can't move on? I don't think so. Who would wish that on someone that they cared about?

I'm not biased toward Cloud/Tifa or Cloud/Aeris, really. I mean, they're both fine, but I've seen them both way too many times to really care anymore. *shrugs*

#13 Jan 20th 2006, 11:06am . Edited Jan 20th 2006, 11:07am

I don't know much about Japanese culture, that's true. But I do understand it and I know they are more reserved then most Western cultures. However, the game is also played by Westerners as well. And they tend to put their own spin on things regardless of how the makers intended it to really be.

No, this is not a Aeris hating forum. This is a discuss why you don't like a certain pairing forum. If you can defend said pairing without resorting to hostilities, then you are welcome too. I'm a firm believer in expressing opinions, but unless you have some concrete evidence to support it, you can't state it as fact.

#14 Jan 20th 2006, 1:51pm

I really don't want this to turn ugly. I didn't know expressing an opinion was an act of hostility. Concrete evidence - hmmm - do you have concrete evidence to disprove me?

#15 Jan 20th 2006, 2:15pm

Nando the RPS King

Concrete evidence - hmmm - do you have concrete evidence to disprove me?

Sorry to intterupt the budding quasi-hostilities, but that's not how rational debate works. The lack of evidence to disprove a point isn't the same thing as evidence that proves it. If neither party has solid evidence, then there's no choice but to write the whole thing off as a matter of opinion. Or we could all keep beating the dead horse.

#16 Jan 20th 2006, 2:28pm

Yes, I agree, this whole thing does seem like beating a dead horse. I just felt it was necissary to support this couple, since the tide it seemed was turning against them here. No, I don't think anyone has concrete evidence, not unless you are like the creators of the game or something. The only claim I have to back up my statements on Cloud and Tifa's relationship is what happened in AC. Cloud's still not with her, Aeris' still in his heart. To me that's as plain as day, but what the hell, believe what you want.

#17 Jan 20th 2006, 2:57pm

Again apologies. I didn't mean to say that expressing your opinion meant you were hostile. I was referring to the Purpose of the Forum topic. No name-calling or whatever. You know general stuff that some people tend to lower themselves down to when they feel closed in. So again, I'm really sorry if you thought of it that way. No hard feelings, hopefully?

#18 Jan 20th 2006, 5:35pm

Ardwynna Morrigu

This isn't one of my favorite couples but it does have a certain sweet, tragic appeal. From Cloud's constant searching and grief and Aeris' tender concern and forgiveness in AC, I would definitely say there is something there and I would even call it love. It just doesn't necessarily have to be romantic in nature.

#19 Jan 21st 2006, 12:33am

Syneiam

I'm not a Cleris fan, though I can see why some people are.

I personnally think that Square Enix is just a sucker for first loves, that's it. The way AC ends proves my point anyway XD

About Cloud and Aeris, during the game. I do believe she saw Zack in him (she even told him!), and she loved that part of him because she still loved Zack (yes, I DO believe in this couple). But she never saw the real Cloud that only Tifa knew, at this point.

Cloud, during the game, was clearly messed up in his mind. I believe that at this point, Zack's memories and feeling were confusing him. Of course, since Zack loved Aeris, Cloud was clearly attracted to her (well, not when I played, but that's another story XD). Yes he felt guilty because he thought she died because of him. But sometimes people tend to forget that he wanted to join SOLDIER only because of Tifa (he wanted to impress her). That it's Tifa who he heard in the Lifestream, and that she helped him at that time.

Yes, he seeked forgiveness in AC. When Sephiroth asks him who is important to him, we can see Aeris (only a part of her face), Zack, a glimpse of Aeris helping him in the Bahamut fight, Tifa, Marlene, Denzel, and a photo of him, Tifa, Marlene and Denzel. This pretty summed ups his feelings I think.

I mean, at the end of AC, Aeris goes back with, oh wait, Zack, her first love (and I believe, her only true love). Cloud, on the other hand, has still all of his friends and his family (Tifa-Denzel-Marlene).

Truly, for me, Square Enix just loves the first love thing way too much XD

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2449328/1/ exactly points what I think about the whole Aeris/Cloud/Tifa triangle. Only two chapters, but really this author knows how to write.

http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2683624/1/ Drabbles by YuCyn. Absolutely fluff, cute and all, BUT I believe she paints very well the relationship between Cloud/Aeris/Tifa/Zack (Aeris is a true friend to Cloud AND Tifa, and Zack is just... Zack XD).

#20 Mar 16th 2006, 1:09am

Taichou

I am not a big Cleris fan. The reasons are complicated due to my mixed feelings about Aeris. I don't necessarily hate her, but I don't really like her character all that much. I know she played a huge part in the game and the movie. However, that doesn't change the fact that I can't really stand her sweet, innocent personality. I guess I'm more for Yuffie (she's probably my favorite), and Tifa. I guess I'm also a bit uncertain as to whether or not I even like seeing Cloud in a relationship. Because I'm so used to him being alone, being much too preoccupied with fighting his own demons, it's kind of hard to imagine him with someone.

#21 Mar 19th 2006, 1:59pm

Ardwynna Morrigu

I can't really stand her sweet, innocent personality.

It's interesting that you should bring that up. A lot of people who don't favor Aeris or outright hate her do it because she's supposedly 100% good and innocent and downright saccharine. I think it's kind of funny because I don't see her as only cotton-candy sweetness at all. She gets mad at Cloud if he's rude to her, she does all the fast talking to get Cloud into a dress, she's cruel to Tseng and if you mess up the Gold Saucer play just right, she smacks the crap out of everybody. And this isn't personal interpretation, this is stuff that's right there on the screen for all to see. But I can understand that the overall image of a very feminine-looking spiritual kind of girl sacrificing herself for the Planet can overshadow her more fiesty moments.

#22 Mar 19th 2006, 2:11pm

Pyrobee

Nothing romantic about killing yourself? Ever read Romeo and Juliet? Uh, meh, nevermind. Anyways, I disagree. I love Cloud and Aeris together, but I wish people wouldn't make Aeris dead and stuff. It's too depressing. I like the few that have Aeris alive and in love with Cloud. If only there were more....

#23 Apr 24th 2006, 5:09pm

Taichou

Yeah I know she isn't 100% sweet and innocent, but it's the overall picture I'm looking at. Haha, and Pyrobee, don't get me started on Romeo and Juliet! I'll go on a rant and it won't be pretty.

#24 Apr 26th 2006, 12:41pm

Pyrobee

Aeris smacks the crap out of everyone if you mess up the play? How do you mess it up? Tell me....

#25 Apr 27th 2006, 1:33pm

Ardwynna Morrigu

Been a while since I did it, but basically just be a complete jerk. Treat her like a piece of meat, show more interest in the other girl (or guy), ignore her when given the chance, treat the other characters as more important than Princess Rosa and leave her to fend for herself when the dragon comes. She basically starts screaming along the lines of "What the hell kind of a knight are you?" and smacks Cloud, the EDK, I think the Knight, maybe the Wizard. It's a pretty mean punch coming from a cute little polygon. Scary girl.

#26 Apr 30th 2006, 4:22pm

Pyrobee

I tried it where I said the knight was my enemy and asked for her measurements, and she punched me and the dragon. It was funny. I'll try that, though. I got it saved right before that.

#27 May 02nd 2006, 6:46pm

Snaaaaake

I don't really like this one.

I think Cloud was able to accept the fact that Aerith was dead,and that he wasn't responsible for it after Advent Children.

Plus,I don't think that they'd let Cloud do that sort of thing with the dead...

#28 Sep 08th 2006, 10:01pm

Snipergal7

I don't hate the characters, I hate the pairing. I just do!

#29 Oct 11th 2006, 7:50am

I don't care how many compliations Square puts out on this silly little game, they're all going to be the same. Notice a pattern? Cloud is always searching for Aeris, in the end he finds that she was there with him to begin with -in his heart, she was his light and so on and so forth.

No, I don't notice a pattern.

AC - Cloud searches for forgiveness from Aerith...And Zack. According to what you're saying, it means that he was in love with Zack as well.

DoC - Cloud shows no signs of looking for Aerith, and is most likely living with Tifa in Edge, like he was until he contracted Geostigma. He barely even appears.

BC - Cloud is in the Shinra military...Which he joined to impress Tifa.

CC - Cloud is in the Shinra military...Which he joined to impress Tifa.

On the Way to a Smile: Case of Tifa - Cloud was living with Tifa in Edge, after saying he wanted to start over with her.

Maiden who Travels the Planet - We don't see much of Cloud. However, Aerith admits that she never actually knew him, and starts spending more time with Zack.

Where is this "pattern" you speak of?

On the other hand, Tifa is always going to be chasing after Cloud, wanting him to be something he's not.

Really now?

1) AC Reunion Files, page 70, "Why did we choose to set it two years later":

- Nojima explains, "Inside, I felt one thing was for sure. Cloud and Tifa would be together. Everybody would be living back home where they belonged. Two years is too short a time to forget the past completely, but it's still a pretty long time...And two years older was a good age for Marlene to start talking a little more."

2) In the official novella "On the Way to a Smile", it's heavily implied that they share a room. Cloud is sleeping, and Tifa suddenly asks him a question (With no signs of movement whatsoever, implying that she was already in the room. And seeing as she was lying in bed when she started talking...), to which he awakens and shows absolutly no surprise at the occurence (Implying that he's used to seeing her when he wakes up).

3) In "On the Way to a Smile", he essentially says that he wants to start a new life with her at the beginning.

4) In the Reunion Files, Nojima specifically refers to Tifa as a "Koibito" in the Japanese text. This translates to "Lover". And not in the "I'm a lover, not a fighter" sense either, but literally a lover.

5) Cloud shows no romantic signs towards Aerith in AC. And if you say that he is because he's looking for her and feels guilty for her death, then you're also claiming that he feels the exact same way about Zack, seeing as he was doing the same for him.

6) It's small, but it's notable. In Denzel/Marlene's room, there are two pictures of Cloud and Tifa that the kids drew sitting right next to each other. One that has Tifa smiling, one that has Cloud blushing. They probably know the going-ons of the household better than us.

Doesn't look much like someone "chasing after Cloud wanting him to be someone he's not". Hell, where did she do that in the first place? She's never wanted him to be someone he wasn't. That would be Cloud himself. Cloud is the only one who's ever had problems with who he was.

And love is a staple in final fantasy games, Squall and Rinoa, Zidane and Garnet, Tidus and Yuna, Cloud and Aeris.

And this can't be replaced with "Cloud and Tifa" why?

Does Square have to come right out and say "Yes, Cloud loved Aeris." No they don't. Why should they? The story has already been told.

1) No, they don't. They've already shown otherwise, what with Cloud living with Tifa and the writer saying that one of the few sure things in his mind was that they were together, and referring to her as a "lover", when Cloud was the only guy she was around.

2) Considering there's at least one more piece of the Compilation to be released (Which, out of six, only one has shown Cloud even interested in Aerith, and in which he was also doing the exact same thing for Zack), I'd say that the story hasn't been told quite yet.

#30 Nov 30th 2006, 11:31am

Rend

Vin that was a bit harsh don't ya think

#31 Nov 30th 2006, 10:16pm

1) Not really. IIRC, you've seen my arguments with SSJ_Jin which (while mostly playful) can degenerate into being my version of harsh. Overall, I don't think I was even very rude. Just a bit blunt...And arrogant. But you know me. I can't resist being a bit egotistical sometimes. Especially on things that I actually do know a lot about.

2) I don't like it when people are as arrogant about their opinions as me. Don't state it as a fact and then act like someone's opinions don't matter when they disagree (Which keeki did for the first few posts). The lesson here: Arrogance doesn't tolerate arrogance.

3) Adrammelech. Evil. Hate him. I beat his esper ass...Then got wasted by his little zombie cronies right afterwards because they were freaking everywhere, and I didn't have time to rest.

Though I will admit that I was probably going a bit overboard.

#32 Dec 01st 2006, 1:57pm . Edited Dec 01st 2006, 1:57pm

Rend

Yes I remember your arguments with Jin, lol, good ole days.....yeah but some people can find arrogance offensive, *remembers both you and Coven*.

P.S. you'll probably never even use Adrammelech, except only to see his animation. Those Caverns are such a pain aren't they?

#33 Dec 01st 2006, 4:49pm

Heh. I do miss those days. We've even stopped debating for the most part (Though we'll probably start up again after we've all managed to play/read about Crisis Core). The only real debates I'm having now are with TruthNothingBut...And, if you've seen him, you know that isn't much. If you want arrogant, he's the guy to watch. We're talking about someone who seriously refers to himself as "The Champ" after not only failing to prove a point, but getting it ripped apart by quotes and scenes from the game. And not the way that we sometimes do. I mean the guy had arguments in the "Cloud vs. Zack" topic such as:

- Zack is better because he'll be more impressive in Crisis Core.

- What Shotgun (A Turk) says about SOLDIER candidates doesn't matter (In reference to her implying that Cloud had the potential to be in SOLDIER).

- The traditional "Well Cloud didn't make it into SOLDIER but Zack did, so Zack is better" while completely ignoring the fact that his skill has grown a bit since he was sixteen.

Anyway, I know I probably won't use Adrammelech...But I have to. It's become a matter of pride. And yeah, the caverns are a pain in the ***. You'd think that if I could bring down the Gil Snapper I could take on something like Adrammelech and his zombies.

#34 Dec 01st 2006, 5:18pm

I am so glad Rend is on here for the CloTis lol. I'm a Clorith and he's a CloTi but we understand and accept each other's opinions! Us Cloriths can believe what we want! We can say such and such points to Clorith just as much as you saying something else in the game points to CloTi. It's a matter of opinion. I like Clorith despite the fact she dies. The people on here that suggest Cloud has a sexual relationship with her when she's dead is disturbing. The Cloriths don't write, or agree with that at all! What we're saying is, he still loves her(because we obviously believed he did) despite her being dead. It's no different from when your mother/father dies. You still love them don't you? You, I'd hope, not have a boyfriend/girlfriend relationship with them so whoever it was that said something about a relationship not being possible because Aerith is dead...I agree. Completely 100%. You can't have a relationship with anyone if they're dead. But your feelings for them don't change.

SquareEnix are never going to outright say "Cloud loved Aerith" or "Cloud loved Tifa" they can't risk it can they? If they said either way, they would lose fans of either pairing. It's all down to the fans on who he ends up with. That's why, in the game, YOU choose to say whether Tifa is your girlfriend or not, YOU choose which girl is in the fighting team with Cloud more, YOU decide whether to buy a flower from Aeris and then decide whether to give it to Tifa or Marlene. It all depends on which girl you liked more. Square wants us to decide for ourselves.

I would like to add that, though I am a Clorith fan I must say, if it's a love triangle, it would generally imply that Cloud held similar levels of affection for them both. I just prefer Clorith because it's tragic and I love tragedys. Tifa is actually my favourite character over Aerith but I don't like her with Cloud.

Just a question to the CloTis if it had been the other way around and Tifa had died(no other changes except that) would you still say "Cloud can't love Tifa! Tifa is dead!!*insert speech of necrophillia related topics*" Honestly, would you?

VinCon01, despite being quite harsh, is one of the few people with good evidence for his pairing. He at least steers away from the "But Aeris dies!" whining. He's not changed my opinion one bit, I'm still Cloud/Aerith all the way. But at least he has better arguements than suggesting Cloud is having sexual contact with Aerith's corpse...*shudders*

#35 Apr 24th 2007, 9:26am

Why did people suggest necrophelia?

~a disturbed Fran

#36 Apr 27th 2007, 1:55pm

Well I have no clue myself, but I have read/skimmed some disturbing pieces that did involve that type of plot. If one were to assume Cloud's love for Aeris/Aerith was extremely deep, and being the emotionally stunted person that some have written him out to be, maybe Cloud could be that sick and twisted enough to...you know...blech!

#37 Apr 27th 2007, 7:26pm . Edited Apr 27th 2007, 7:30pm

Yeah maybe for fanfiction if they're writing a horror thing where he's mentally disturbed but not when he is in character. There's no way he would do that! He's got the spirit Aerith instead lol - joke!!

No seriously, I don't agree with the suggestion that he would do that.

#38 Apr 28th 2007, 5:17am

Cloud must be Sephiroth crazy to pull off some corpse-luvin'!

~Fran

#39 Apr 28th 2007, 5:23pm

ha ha...sorry...I know Cloud is mental but he's not THAT crazy!

#40 May 02nd 2007, 3:06am

Apart from the fact he's absolutely bonkers, he's perfectly sane! Wait, that didn't make sense... o.o

Well, necrophilia or not, it takes a lot of pure insanity to do sick things. Which makes me think about Sephy. What is HE capable of?

A part of me doesn't want to know, lol.

~Fran

#41 May 02nd 2007, 4:09pm

http://icor.livejournal.com/35464.html

Maybe this will lighten your views on why people love and will always love Cloud/Aeris together regardless of what happens postAC etc

And just like the author said, there's no real basis for either Cloud/Tifa or Cloud/Aeris being the canon pairing, it would ruin the whole point of the love triangle etc etc. But yeah that essay got good reviews, even from people who hate Cloud/Aeris so have a look yourselves...

~Beeria

#42 Jun 15th 2007, 2:05pm

Dude, that what a long-arse essay... *rubs eyes* But it was worth it. This person put the whole Clorith scenario perfectly. Thanx Beeria!! *glomps*

~Fran

P.S.: Now off to another couple debate...

#43 Jun 15th 2007, 3:52pm

I don't have time to read a lot of it right now, but just skimming I've already seen at least one flaw in the essay. I'll just do this one quickly:

It makes the statement: Right before her death Cloud illustrates the deep spiritual bond he has with Aerith, claiming he only knows where she is because "I feel it in my soul…"

That's completely untrue. He does make that statement...However, when using it as evidence, they completely ignore everything else the party says. The actual conversation goes like this:

Cloud: I feel it...

Barret: Cloud, what is it?

Tifa: Cloud... what's wrong?

Nanaki: What's wrong? Are you sick?

Yuffie: Hey---, Cloud. What's your problem?

Cloud: Aeris is here...and so is Sephiroth.

Barret: Wh, what! Sephiroth!?

Tifa: You're saying it's not just Aeris, but Sephiroth, too?

Nanaki: What! Sephiroth's here too!?

Yuffie: No way---! Sephiroth wasn't invited!

Nanaki: How did you find out?

Cait Sith: But how can you tell that?

Vincent:...How did you find that out?

Cid: Hey, how do you know!?

Cloud:...it's not an excuse. I feel it in my soul.

After this everyone in the party, no matter who you have in it, says something along the lines of "That's pretty bad" and "We need to hurry". It would be a good point for Aerith/Cloud...If Cloud hadn't been saying it in a direct reference to Sephiroth. No matter what characters you have in your party, it follows the same lines. The party was already aware of the fact that Aerith was there. Cloud then says "Aeris is here...And so is Sephiroth", and when they ask him how he knows (And seeing as they're already aware of the fact that Aerith is there, they wouldn't be asking how he knows that she's there), he responds "It's not an excuse. I feel it in my soul". The fact that they all exclaim how they need to hurry, or how bad that is, afterwards only reinforces that they were referring to Sephiroth.

So unless someone is trying to argue that Cloud has it bad for Seph, that's not a very good point. I'll get back to the essay soon.

----NOTE: I'm not trying to stomp on the Cloud/Aerith pairing. I simply enjoy pointing out flaws in arguments. I spend a lot of time on GameSpot/GameFAQs, and I've gotten used to debating these subjects. Please don't take it personally.

#44 Jun 15th 2007, 5:38pm . Edited Jun 15th 2007, 5:40pm

And so it begins: NOTE: Again, I'm not trying to stomp on the Aerith/Cloud pairing or attempting to "enforce" the Cloud/Tifa pairing. After reading the essay, I'm pretty certain I've debated with this person before, or at least with someone who follows the essay closely, considering that person and the essay have the same flaws in the points they make and their debating style. I'll address that later...And I'll be splitting this into several posts:

---

The relationship between Cloud and Aerith has been referred to by Square as “A story of a love that could never be,” and that’s exactly what it is—a tragedy, pure and simple.

Untrue. It’s only referred to as such on the commercial, which is hardly solid evidence, seeing as it isn’t exactly for previews to be misleading at times, or add/change things between the preview and the game. The U.S. preview hardly qualifies as an official statement by SE regarding their romance.

Unlike the majority of canon relationships in the Final Fantasy saga, or indeed many series, one of the most important aspects is death, and everything that comes with it. However, death is not a finale, and it only strengthens the bond between them. For many it can be difficult to accept that love can continue after something as heartbreaking as death, but it is that which makes the pairing so unique and the fen so diverse.

Again, while this is true to some degree, the fact that love continues after death hardly means romance. People love their children, parents, friends, pets, etc, etc after death as well.

Their story begins in the city of Midgar, a horribly monotonous place without a sky and filled with dusty air and recycled sunshine. It is, in essence, a concrete prison. Cloud finds himself working there as a mercenary, taking any and every job that comes his way in order to survive, whether they’re legal or not.

Not related to the Aerith/Cloud issue, but still not true. The job with Avalanche was Cloud’s first job as a mercenary. It may seem petty or similar to a cheap shot, but this kind of thing does raise some questions as to the credibility of the essay, seeing as an essay that gets various portions of the games plot wrong wouldn’t be as reliable. Sorry if it seems like I’m only trying to discredit it, but…well…In this type of discussion/debate, the credibility of a criticism/analysis is important.

Of course, such a place demands something radically different to balance out the desolation. That ‘brightness’ is found in Aerith; she’s lived in the confines of Midgar since the age of seven, and yet none of its dullness has worn off on her. Her soft pink clothes stand out dramatically against the grey background, and her personality is still warm and caring. In a sense she brings life to the city with her humble flower growing.

Again, this fails to relate to any kind of relationship to Cloud. She’s a Cetra. It’s a Cetra thing. They’re supposed to be unique, and closer to the planet than most. None of the dullness of Midgar has rubbed off on the younger, more childish Marlene, yet nobody would claim that she and Cloud were meant to be (Well, they might, but…Y’know).

It is here where Cloud quite literally falls into her life; the old Church roof and soft flowerbed provide a safety blanket for him, and it is not long before he’s become her bodyguard and agreed to date her. Within only a few hours of knowing Cloud, it's easy to see how much of an impact Aerith has had on him. After all, who else could convince him with ease to dress up in a custom made silk dress, wear a wig, make-up and women's underwear?

1) Just like Rod (BC), and Zack (CC), and half the other people Aerith has met. Rod fell into the flowers and tried to protect her. Zack appears to have done the same.

2) Yet the essay conveniently ignores that he didn’t do so with ease (She had to talk him into it after there weren’t any other visible options besides slaughtering off half the building), and the only reason Cloud did it in the first place was to save Tifa. As with the one I talked about before, this essay ignored everything else that was happening in the game when this took place.

It’s been said many times, and it’s certainly true for Cloud and Aerith—in some aspects they could hardly be more different. Cloud is a hardened ex-SOLDIER (in his mind, at least) and ridiculed several times by Barret at the beginning of the game for not caring about anyone other than himself. He is a pessimistic character who suppresses his feelings—“but I’m… we’re here for you”— and for the most part can be viewed as being insane in his own subtle way. Young-Cloud trying to convince Cloud not to hand the Black materia over to Sephiroth is, in my opinion, one of the most disturbing parts of any game.

Cloud is only ridiculed as such by Barret, and he never shows any signs of not caring about anyone but himself. He says several times that he doesn’t care about the planet, but never that he doesn’t care about other people. Not only that, but Barret rarely ridicules him about it, and also refers to Nanaki in much the same way during the escape from Shinra HQ.

And at the other end of the scale we have Aerith, who is portrayed as an all-round caring character. Her out-look on life is strangely optimistic, despite her troubled past, and she only ever shows real signs of being upset once, to Cloud at the Cosmo Candle—“I’m all alone now.” Unlike Cloud Aerith is very sure of her own feelings, as she openly flirts with him, and throughout the game Aerith is shown to be one of the few sure of her own mind, no matter how difficult her fate might be for her to accept.

Her fate isn’t difficult to accept because she doesn’t know what’s going to happen. The creators have even said as much, claiming that they wanted it to be quick, brutal, cold-blooded murder. Not some cliché Hollywood “sacrifice”.

Hojo has had a major influence in the shaping of their characters, due in both cases to his twisted experiments. Aerith was a victim of his for seven whole years, while Cloud was kept by him for five years, already effected deeply by the loss of his village and the betrayal of Sephiroth. As a rule neither character mentions what has happened to them.

While there’s an obvious similarity here, it really has little influence on their relationship. Cloud wasn’t aware of the fact that he was captured by Hojo. Cloud doesn’t mention what happened to him regarding Hojo because he didn’t even know it happened. In regards to the Nibelheim Incident, he has little difficulty explaining what happened.

#45 Jun 15th 2007, 8:13pm

Growing up both were rather lonely; Cloud never had any real friends in Nibelheim, and was continuously made fun of and mocked. Even though Elmyra, Aerith’s adopted mother, claims that Aerith was never lonely, the only company she only ever had was the voices of the dead. It seems perfectly reasonable to say that neither of them know how to socialise properly. While Cloud is withdrawn and blunt when it comes to conversation, due to effectively losing five years of his life, Aerith is loud and outspoken but still awkward; after all, she lived with out knowing about the outside world for seven years, only accompanied by a madman, and then was allowed to do as she pleased under Elmyra's wing.

1) Even after all this time, I’ve failed to see where anyone gets the idea that Cloud was picked on as a child. It’s never said. The closest thing to it was Cloud’s statement that he was never allowed into the group…Which comes shortly after his statement that he basically thought they were all stupid and immature. And you wonder why they didn’t let you in the club? If someone can point out a quote where Cloud was “picked on” or “mocked and made fun of” I’d appreciate it.

2) Again, Cloud isn’t withdrawn and blunt due to the loss of those five years. He didn’t even know that he had lost five years of his life.

3) Aerith wasn’t only accompanied by a madman, as far as I can remember. IIRC, she wasn’t separated from Ifalna. Not to mention that she could probably hear the voices of the dead about as easily in the lab as she did in Midgar in general.

There is also the issue of the voices which plague their minds. Throughout the first half of the game a young Cloud talks to Cloud in his head, revealing forgotten pieces of his past; whenever this happens it is usually accompanied by physical discomfort. It is slightly different in Aerith’s case, as her mind is filled by the voices of the dead; like Cloud, this is shown to bother her, evident in the way she is so eager to deny her heritage as a child.

1) First off, I still fail to see how this shows any kind of similarities between them that they’re aware of. Cloud isn’t aware of what this “voice” is, and basically just ignores it. Nobody else knows that it happens, or at least the extent to which it affects him.

2) Except it’s not shown to bother her at the time of the game. The only time it’s ever shown bothering her is when she’s a child who’s trying to be normal. It never bothers her when she’s older.

Throughout Final Fantasy VII Cloud and Aerith both do a great deal to help each other, both emotionally and physically. The first example of this comes very early on, only several minutes after they meet—as noted above, Cloud becomes her bodyguard. He manages to protect her from being kidnapped by Reno of the Turks and several Shinra grunts, but more importantly he rescues her from the Shinra headquarters when she eventually is captured by Tseng.

1) Again, so do Rod and Zack. This isn’t some kind of symbol that they’re meant for each other or anything, seeing as at least two people have done the same thing for Aerith. And Rod was up against some slightly more dangerous competition than Cloud. He stood up against Shears/Sears (Depending on which translation you look at), Fuhito, and Elfe (Someone who held Sephiroth off in a fight for a short time), as well as several of their soldiers, IIRC. And Rod wasn’t hired for it, or goaded into it.

2) And again this essay ignores everything else in the game besides the parts that support its purpose. Cloud was willing to go through the Wall Market events to save Tifa. It also ignores the fact that Barret and Tifa were right there with him, trying to rescue her just as much as he was. Cloud rescuing her would sound more romantic if the other two weren’t going to the exact same lengths to rescue her that he was.

Cloud seems to do so more out of want than duty, and this is apparently obvious to Barret, who in shock states “I never thought someone like you would fight for someone else.” Still, Cloud remains modest about putting himself through such danger, and when Aerith thanks him in the prison cells for coming to save her, he remarks “Hey, I’m your bodyguard, right?”

How is this proof or evidence? First off, fighting for someone else doesn’t mean it’s romantic. Cloud was willing to fight to save Tifa, and Barret, and everyone else in the party as well. Second, Barret wasn’t remotely aware of the fact that Cloud agreed to be her bodyguard, and therefore wouldn’t know that he was doing it for some form of payment. And seeing as we can’t hear him say “Hey, I’m your bodyguard, right?” and therefore can’t tell what tone he’s using, he could simply be saying “Hey, I’m your bodyguard, right?” without some kind of extra meaning behind it. Seeing as he is, in fact, her bodyguard.

Unlike Cloud’s violent ways Aerith seems to offer much more in the way of emotional support. She supports Cloud in everything he does—it’s initially her idea for him to become the leader—and often tries to comfort him; “One day we’ll all look back on this and laugh.”

1) …What “violent ways”?

2) She’s obviously not the only one who thinks so either, seeing as Red and Tifa both agree. That’s simply making the logical choice. Look at their options: Cloud is (supposedly) a former SOLDIER. Barret is a hot-headed guy who, frankly, isn’t that big on thinking things through. Red is an unknown factor, and neither she nor Tifa have any real experience with leading people.

3) Again, her comforting him is hardly some kind of evidence here. She tries to comfort a lot of people. It’s just something that’s in her nature.

Aerith’s concern for Cloud’s well being is shown in their meeting in the Sleeping Forest. When Cloud tries to apologise Aerith tells him it’s alright, but he should really worry about it. This suggests that Aerith understands the state of Cloud’s frail mind, and wants to protect him by trying to defeat Sephiroth herself.

The problem being that it doesn’t show anything like that. Aerith isn’t remotely aware of Cloud’s “frail mind”. This essay has a problem with trying to read between the lines before reading the actual lines. He said he was sorry for what he did before, and she forgave him. There’s nothing to look into here. It’s pretty straightforward.

It is a terrible blow for all of AVALANCHE, but no one seems to suffer more than Cloud.

…Well, obviously. Most of the others didn’t just try to kill her, and weren’t standing just a few feet in front of her when she was killed. Not only that, but Cloud wasn’t like the others. Because of his condition, he should have known that Sephiroth was there. It hurts him more because unlike the others, he actually believes he could have stopped it.

The death cripples Cloud who blindly believed that Aerith would come back to him. As he holds her dying body and cries, he forces out words describing his sadness and anger:

“Aerith is gone. Aerith will no longer talk, no longer laugh, cry… or get angry. What about us… what are WE supposed to do? What about my pain? My fingers are tingling. My Mouth is dry. My eyes are burning.”

1) …In what sense is the author saying that he thought she would “come back to him”? I’m not too clear on the meaning here.

2) As per usual, it’s reading too far into this. This is hardly an uncommon reaction when a loved one dies, be it a lover, friend, family member, etc, etc. It hardly means something romantic.

Interestingly enough, Sephiroth registers shock at Cloud’s unusual emotional outburst, and questions Cloud on the matter—“Are you trying to tell me you have feelings too?” It would seem suggest that Cloud should not have feelings for anyone, possibly due to the influence of Jenova cells, let alone this intense.

And, of course (Sorry, I’m starting to get a bit skeptical of this essay. It’s leaving a lot of stuff out, and ignoring several other things), it ignores the way Sephiroth works. Sephiroth literally thinks of Cloud as nothing more than a puppet. He likes to torture Cloud because he’s embarrassed about what happened in Nibelheim. It hurt his ego, and he wants Cloud to suffer. It doesn’t mean that he thinks Cloud shouldn’t actually have feelings. It’s just another way to break him. This is obvious when he tries to convince Cloud that he’s nothing but a Copy in the Northern Crater, and uses the same line of taunting.

#46 Jun 15th 2007, 8:13pm . Edited Jun 15th 2007, 8:18pm

Further backing up Cloud’s heartbreak because of Aerith’s death is a passage from Maiden Who Travels The Planet:

“But a cry came through [Aerith]. It wasn’t the sound of her cry. If it was then she would have felt the blood gushing up through her throat and the fury that forced its way out from the depths of her soul—it was the sound of Cloud’s heart breaking. It was the cry of his heart that could never be healed of the grief he felt towards Aerith’s death, the blame towards himself.”

Oh, don’t even get me started on Maiden. Maiden is the one where she flat out admits that she never really knew the man. And again, this doesn’t prove or really even imply romance at all. His friend was murdered right in front of him, and he has every reason to think he should have been able to stop it somehow. Obviously he’s going to feel like crap and blame himself.

Her death fits in eerily well with a prediction Cloud receives from Cait Sith at the Gold Saucer, which reads “What you pursue will be yours, but you will lose something dear to you.”

Yes, yes it does. Now the author should explain how “You’ll lose something dear to you” translates to “He loves her”.

Even after her death it is clear that Cloud still feels for Aerith, and thinks of her often; he openly admits “I remember Aerith a lot. No… not that. You haven’t remembered. You haven’t forgotten. That’s not it…” This is massively important, because even though Square could have taken the easy route, to forget Aerith as soon as her role in the game was over, they made sure to make it painfully obvious that Cloud has not, and cannot, forget about Aerith.

Just like the rest of the party. Seriously, one of the main problems with this essay is that it tries to use things as evidence when they could just as easily be applied to the rest of the party’s feelings/Cloud’s feelings towards the rest of the party. Hell, two years after she dies they’re all still wearing ribbons to remember her. Square didn’t take the “forget Aerith as soon as her role in the game is over” route because her role in the game isn’t over until she gathers the rest of the souls in the Lifestream to beat Meteor back. It’s not even her connection to the party and Cloud that keeps her an important figure in the story. It’s the simple fact that she’s the only thing that can stop Meteor.

One of the most famous Cloud/Aerith parts of the game is the date which has been promised since the beginning, in which Aerith tells Cloud “I want to meet… you.” While the meaning is somewhat ambiguous in the English version of the game, in the original in this context Aerith is basically telling Cloud she wants to have a sexual (and quite clearly romantic) relationship with him.

In the original? I find it somewhat hard to believe the author on this one. The author believes that him feeling guilty over not being able to stop the murder of someone he cares about when she’s murdered right in front of him by someone he should have been able to tell was there implies that he loves her, so I find it difficult to accept that this was the literal meaning in a completely different language.

Among the fandom there is the debate to as whether Aerith loved Cloud for being Cloud, or because she saw Zack in him, even thought she claims that they’re different people. However, this misconception is cleared up nicely in Maiden Who Travels the Planet by several statements:

“Cloud… I miss you. I miss the real you…”

“Aerith delved into her memories again. Memories that showed Cloud’s individuality.”

“She was happy. She was happy she now knew the real Cloud, and was able to watch over him.”

Maiden Who Travels the Planet also makes it clear that leaving Cloud was not easy for her; in fact, the decision is portrayed as being so difficult that she almost stays behind at the cost of all the lives on the Planet. However, she knows deep down that she cannot do this, even though “She wanted to stay by his side forever if she could.” And most importantly, “She loved him.”

*sighs* Again, this essay completely ignores everything that contradicts what helps its point. It ignores the fact that these statements were within the first few paragraphs, and the fact that later on in the story she admits that she was attracted to a lot of the Zack in him, and that she didn’t even really know him.

Even if you don't opt to believe that there was a romantic relationship between the two, it's very difficult to deny that they were incredibly important to each other.

That I’ll never deny. It’s ridiculous to say otherwise.

It is suggested that neither Cloud nor Aerith believe that death is the end for them, and Cloud is intent on searching for her. At the end of Final Fantasy VII, after Aerith pulls him from the Lifestream, Cloud tells Tifa “I think I’m beginning to understand. An answer from the planet… The Promised Land… I think I can meet her there.” Aerith too has a similar line proving that she is waiting for Cloud which almost seems like a direct response to his statement, whereby she says “Until that time comes, I’ll wander around here for a while. I’ll spend my time in the Planet… in our Promised Land.”

1) …For someone who claims that the Japanese version said something different when it helped them, they sure like to ignore that the original Japanese version actually said something along the lines of “I think I can find it [The Promised Land] there”.

2) Could someone tell me where that quote came from? I can’t seem to recall.

The link between Cloud and Aerith exists even after death, as proven in Advent Children.

And like with most of the above, it automatically assumes that this is romantic.

It is Aerith who manages to free Cloud of his guilt after they meet in a flower field under a perfect white sky, Aerith who cures Cloud’s geostigma (the healing rain in the Church is in fact her final limit break, Great Gospel), Aerith who heals him from the gunshot wound, and Aerith who helps Cloud through Bahumut’s lethal attack, holding his hand in reference to the ending of Final Fantasy VII.

Oh, there are too many flaws here for me to list…Or not:

1) …No, it isn’t. Aerith has almost nothing to do with freeing Cloud of his guilt. He doesn’t stop feeling guilty until Tifa and Vincent verbally beat some sense into his thick skull. He’s still whining about how he can’t help anyone and how much he thinks he sucks even after the flower field incident.

2) Aerith heals his Geostigma…Along with everyone else’s, seeing as there isn’t any actual cure. This doesn’t really prove, or even imply, anything.

3) Aerith heals him from the gunshot wound. Again, the point being? The guy just saved the entire planet and went through hell (Again). He deserves a little help here.

4) Aerith didn’t help him through the attack at all. That was the rest of the party. The others throw him up there, and apparently help form the barrier that gets him through the blast. All Aerith did was use Fury Brand*

*Fury Brand fills a character’s “limit bar”. In Cloud’s case, he has to fight to build Spirit Energy (The blue energy shown around him and/or his blade when using limits). He didn’t fight at all between Braver and Climhazzard. Coincidentally, as soon as a bunch of green streams of energy (Lifestream…Or, as it’s sometimes known, Spirit Energy) go from her hand into his, he’s suddenly fully charged, despite not fighting in between that and his last limit.

Cloud expresses his inability to let go by living in her Church, and his fear of being happy with his 'family,' as he believes he will lose them just like Aerith. He tells her that he wants to be forgiven “More than anything,” even though she has never blamed him.

1) Except for the part where he was only living in her church for a short time before AC. Case of Tifa clearly shows that he’s been living with her (In the same room, no less) for the last two years. He only left them once he got Geostigma. But honestly, I expected this essay to ignore that.

2) He wants to be forgiven more than anything…For ALL of his failures. Zack, Aerith, Tifa, Marlene, his mother, his hometown, Denzel, the children he can’t save…Not just Aerith.

#47 Jun 15th 2007, 8:23pm