Heyy, technically, the only reason I sorta bash this pairing is that Zack was obviously in love with Aerith/Aeris, and I know that she loved him too. While this may sound soppy or yucky or too mushy, but hey, if you write one whole game on Zack, and put it that he likes Aerith and Aerith likes him, I don't see why Aerith will suddenly start to like some other guy, or even show signs like that.

Well, it's not as if you can't move on from a past love, it's that Aeris didn't. She had less than no opportunity to get to know the real Cloud (and YES, in the POSSIBLE date scene with Aeris, she expresses an INTEREST in finding the differences between the two, but obviously didn't receive that chance), whereas she and Zack spent a lot of time together. Crisis Core made Zack x Aeris canon. FFVII showed small hints of Cloud x Aeris. AC and Compilation near-canonized Cloud x Tifa (I refrain from outright saying canonized, for fear of stepping on delicate toes).

I personally love Zack x Aeris :D They were a couple that was meant to be.

I don't think Cloud=Zack. Just because Zack asked Cloud to be a living legacy of him, and that Cloud has many of Zack's traits, I think of them as separate entities still.

They are completely separate people, obviously, with distinct characters, but there is the whole deal with the Zack-ified Cloud confusing his memories with that of Zack, and thinking he was Zack for awhile. Not just the whole legacy deal.

Aerith may have just been stuck in the middle of the two of them. What I know for sure is that she loved Zack. And probably did till the day that bloody Sephiroth stabbed her. I think that if Cloud had gotten in the picture before Zack, maybe she would have liked him first. But the thing is, that's not the case. So all I can say is, don't put people together just because they look nice together. I think, to be absolutely true to the story, CloudxAerith/Aeris does not go. It just doesn't seem right to me.

Aeris certainly was confused as to their similarities, but as you said, her love for Zack is canon. Her love for Cloud barely scrapes at being hinted at. And I agree, maybe if she'd had the time to get to know Cloud, she would have developed more romantic feelings, but in the end, that wasn't meant to be. And frankly, I just think her and Zack's personalities go well together ^^ Just like Cloud and Tifa's.

Bleuh. S'been awhile since I paid these here forums a visit.

- WAS

Wow, all you guys who posted proof about Cloti just made me love the couple even more!

I don't get it when Cleris fans say that Cloud will always love her (in a romantic way), I mean, he obviously gets over her in On a Way to Smile, in Tifa's perspective. Also, I noticed that in Dirge of Cerberus, none of the party members are wearing the pink ribbon around their arms to represent Aerith's death. So in a way, I think they've all moved on from that tramautic event, including Cloud, who is now living happily with Tifa.

The thing is... Cloud never loved Aeris. At best, it was physical attraction because yeah, Aeris is a cute, flirtatious girl who plays up Cloud's ego. But again, you can't fall in love with someone in the short period of time that Cloud and Aeris knew each other. Cloud and Tifa had a whole childhood to build upon. Just the idea of a character like Tifa I find meshes much better with Cloud.

Not saying that Aeris and Cloud aren't terribly important to each other, though, because in their time together, they did form special bonds. Just like everybody else in the party.

And yes, in DoC everybody appears to have moved on, most likely due to Aeris's reassurances in AC.

I have a lot of things I want to say, but I'm pooped. (No idea why, it's not even late where I am.)

I suppose I'll blabber later :)

- WAS

Love Aeris... my favorite character.

But seriously, this pairing makes me throw up inside. The only reason why people like this pairing so much (really overrated) is because it's a "tragic love story." I hate that... at least, most of them anyways.

And no offense to Cleriths (there are Cloti's too who do this) but I don't like it when they bash the characters, which most Cleriths are...

You had to revive a four-month old thread JUST FOR THAT!?!?!?!?!?!!? asdfjkljasdf;lkjasdf;lkj WTF!!!???

...nah, just kidding. I seriously doubt that MOST Cleriths hate or bash Tifa, though... I think there are those random few whose opinions are so strongly voiced that they seem to speak for the whole crowd when they really don't.

I totally agree with you crackitlackin I love Aerith although she's not my favorite character,but the pairing also makes me throw up inside and I hate that people like this couple because they think it's a tragic love story when they're not,but zack&aerith now that's a tragic love story

So to me zack&aerith and cloud&tifa are just perfect

He might not have HAD some of that trauma in the first place if Tifa had been up front with him.

How so? Tifa herself had memory troubles. She couldn't remember the accident at the bridge until she was in the Lifestream. And given that she did not encounter Cloud at all during the Nibelheim events, and she was left unconscious and near death at the end of it, it's not hard to imagine that she wouldn't be able to remember that period all that clearly, too. She would have been unable to explain anything about Cloud knowing about what happened there in such detail.

Sorry... I know this is old, but I couldn't help noticing that particular tidbit. I completely agree with hgblob's answer to the first quote here, but I just wanted to add something...

Tifa had memory troubles, yes, but she can't be entirely blamed for that... IIRC, after the Nibelheim incident, ShinRa erased the entire incident, and rebuilt the surrounding village as if it had never happened. They kept it on the down-low... So even if Tifa recalled the incident, who would believe her? There's no... proof of the incident in their world, if I remember. ShinRa was determined to forget it. That in itself probably messed with Tifa's memory as well, and further planted doubt in her mind about the events of the incident (though, deep down, she knows that it really happened).

Case of Lifestream:White.

Read it. Read it carefully. Consider wisely. Then say something. Heh.

I've read it. Carefully.

I've considered what Aerith said in there: That she sees Cloud as her koibito.

Then I considered what Cloud said throughout the compilation and what's been said for Cloud by the writers of the compilation: That Tifa is the one he had a crush on when he was a child. That Tifa is the one he's wanted to impress. That Tifa is the one he opened his heart to. That Tifa is the one he's revealed his feelings for and discovered that she has mutual feelings for him. That Tifa is the one he spent the night with under the Highwind sharing dialogue that's 'verging on indecent'. That Tifa is the one he wants to live with. That Tifa is what gives him hope to live his life. That Tifa is the one he's living with before and after AC/ACC. That Tifa is the woman he's building a family with before and after AC/ACC. That being with Tifa and the kids makes him happy. That Tifa is said by the creators to be the koibito in AC/ACC, and common sense dictates that she'd be koibito only to the man she's living with (ie. Cloud).

Conclusion: The evidence is still heavily in favour of Cloud/Tifa.

EDIT: Hey, Alex, does this mean that you've changed your mind about what 恋人 means and you're finally gonna stop with the 'koi bito' nonsense once and for all?

I dislike Clorith because there's no why. To me the why is most important.

cloud never love aeris but he love tifa instead is what you implying if so im going to have to disagree

Here is my prespective of everything. Let me just say as of a year ago I am no longer a Cloti or Cleris. When I first played the game I was all CloudxTifa then as I played the game more I became a CloudxAeris fan. But now I am neither and enjoy them both equally. Tifa was one of my favorites when I first played the game. But with this whole thing if I had to say which had more eveidence of a canon I would say Aeris and Cloud the reason are:

1. There were so many hints of romantic interest, even if Cloti's choose to deny it it was there. The date, the fact that she was the only one who made Cloud show different emotions other than his cold and cocky exterior. The fact that his mind always lingers back to Aeris. The fact that he wants to meet her in their Promise Land. The fact that she was the only one who wanted to find the real him, not Tifa who continued to let him live a lie.

2. In the Maiden Who Travel the Planet it basically shows how she moved on from Zack and shows that she love Cloud. Even in the Case of Tifa it only shows how she have a motherly love for him and how she enjoys that. Cloud also leaves her often (where he goes its pretty obvious but i'll let you guess). This only proves how Tifa and Cloud love for each other can only be family like but not romantic.

3. With DOC people bring up how Cloud and everyone else is not wearing their ribbon, and how that proves Cloud moved on with his life with Tifa. Just because Cloud moved on doesn't mean he moved on to start a romantic relationship with Tifa. Also how can you use this to prove Tifa and Cloud when this game was basically about Vincent and Tifa and Cloud was barely shown?

4. A thing I notice alot was that outside of FF7 Aeris and Cloud are seen more together or referenced. Such as Final Fantasy Tactics there was a scene with Cloud and a flower girl who resembled Aeris and Cloud when she asked him whats wrong he was speechless (it is later revealed that the flower girl name was indeed Aeris). Also in dissidia with cloud in the flower field (though not a romance) it is indeed a reference to aeris. Also in Itadaki Street (shows only cloud aeris sephiroth and tifa) game (only in japan) in the preview Cloud walks along side with Aeris. Now I am not saying this proves romance but it does proves that Tifa and Cloud love can only be that of friendship, because usually in about 99% of cases characters that are suppose to be canon pairings are usually reference togethere and Tifa other than FF7 isn't reference with Cloud in anything else. It is usuall Aeris and most often Sephiroth that always referenced to Cloud.

5. To those who say Tifa knew the real Cloud. That is so not true. Yes in the game she helped him with the memories when he had mako poisoning but she never knew the real him. Actually if you played the game they weren't even childhood friends as the profile said. Tifa didn't give him the light of day as kids. Also to those who say he went to soldiers because of Tifa thats only partially true. For one that promised was more forced on Cloud. He went to soldiers to impress Tifa so she can notice him but the true reason he went to soldier was most likely because of Sephiroth (which probably at the time of the Nibelheim incident if effected him even more) and his desire to be strong like him. If there were no Sephiroth, Cloud probably would have never went to soldiers and Tifa would have probably continued to ignore him.

Not to sound like a Cleris now, there is probably a possibility of Cloud and Tifa since Aeris is gone because I believe she is an obstacle that prevents Tifa and Cloud. There now is a posibility that they may settle down but the chances are slim.

Even if Aeris never died there is no saying they would be a couple thats what makes FF7 love triangle so great. To me he love/care for them both equally, the only reason why i would say more aeris is because of some evidence and also the fact that at first tifa wasn't even going to be part of the game.

But overall if you look at it at a neutral view people, I can say that I can't necessarily picture Cloud with either of them because of his character and personality.

In many ways Cloud is like Sephiroth. They both, in my opinions, are characters that are almost incapable of being romantically involve with anyone, mostly sephiroth. All the thing that Cloud experienced in his life such as; the tragedy in his hometown, losing his mother, losing his idol, the lost of aeris and zack and not making it into soldiers. I believe no matter what he will never get over it and being in a relationship will only make things complicated. He would never be able to show enough love to satisfy Tifa and his worry for her being safe would prevent a love with Aeris. With everything that has happened Cloud's lovelife would only end in tragedy on both parts. Maybe thats why SE made things the way it is because Cloud is incapable of loving either completely. Cloud is to busy worrying about Sephiroth and how to make sure he never come back. To me as long as that is his worry and Sephiroth is part of his memories (i'm not applying a yaoi reference just to let you know) he will never have time for romance.

The only fact that I do know regarding the three is that Cloud will always atleast love them as a friend, so just to reassure you Cloti and Cleris fans atleast there some form of love even if it's just friendship.

1. There were so many hints of romantic interest, even if Cloti's choose to deny it it was there. The date, the fact that she was the only one who made Cloud show different emotions other than his cold and cocky exterior. The fact that his mind always lingers back to Aeris. The fact that he wants to meet her in their Promise Land. The fact that she was the only one who wanted to find the real him, not Tifa who continued to let him live a lie.

The date is a result of gameplay mechanics chosen by the player, and can be with Aerith, Tifa, Yuffie, or even Barret. It also has no romantic connotations even when Aerith is the one chosen, as nothing occurs aside from Aerith stating that she'd like to get to know the real Cloud. He never gives any indication of returning any of these feelings, even ignoring the fact that any such show of affection would be brought into question due to the fact that the Cloud we see throughout the vast majority of the game is nothing more than an idealized vision of himself created through a combination of his true memories, dreams of what he wants to be, and stories he heard from Zack.

On the second point, claiming that she's the only one who made Cloud show any other emotions is ridiculous. He openly expresses a variety of emotions at various points in the story with several characters. If you truly want to go into this route, then Tifa was closer to him than anyone besides perhaps Sephiroth, given that they were the only two who had any idea of who he truly was, and were the only two to ever see his true thoughts and feelings. Tifa when she aided him in retrieving his true self, and Sephiroth through his various manipulations.

As for his mind always lingering on Aerith? His mind was never implied to linger on anyone more than anyone else in FFVII. If you're referring to later materials, then clearly he must have been in love with Zack, as said SOLDIER clearly takes the forefront in most of his moments of self-torture.

Also, you might want to do a little research. As with a great many things in the game, Cloud's statement of wanting to meet her in the promised land was a mistranslation (I have no idea why it took them so long to get a decent translation team. Even FFVIII had a number of errors that ranged from minor to pretty significant). A more accurate translation would be that he knew where to find it ("It" being the promised land). He never made any references to a person.

And as for her being the only one to want to find the real him? She wanted to find the real him because she had no clue who he actually was. Tifa's decision to let him live a lie was probably the most reasonable decision to make. If she had forced the issue, odds are Cloud would have snapped with the realization that everything he knew was false just as he did when Sephiroth forced the issue. The fact of the matter is that Cloud was incredibly unstable, and as with all people in unstable states, forcing issues that are bound to further aggravate them is a very bad idea.

2. In the Maiden Who Travel the Planet it basically shows how she moved on from Zack and shows that she love Cloud. Even in the Case of Tifa it only shows how she have a motherly love for him and how she enjoys that. Cloud also leaves her often (where he goes its pretty obvious but i'll let you guess). This only proves how Tifa and Cloud love for each other can only be family like but not romantic.

I find it funny how people who use Maiden as a basis seem to conveniently ignore the entirety of the story outside of that particular moment. She said that she'd moved on from Zack and that Cloud was her true love...in the first paragraph. What those who use this as a basis always seem to forget (Intentionally or otherwise), is that later on in the story she blatantly acknowledges that she didn't know who Cloud really was, and when she attempts to think of everything she could that was uniquely him, it triggered Zack's manifestation. This is, of course, ignoring the fact that Maiden is completely non-canon in the first place, as not only was it not written by the same people who wrote the stories of the games, but it outright contradicts the canon materials in multiple instances.

And how exactly does Case of Tifa imply that she only feels a motherly love towards him? It's heavily implied that they sleep in the same room, and that they consider themselves a family. And yes, it is obvious where Cloud goes, because it's blatantly stated in the text: He's a delivery boy. He leaves because his job is to transport goods. That's how he got the Fenrir. And the Fusion Swords/First Sword. He doesn't visit the church until after contracting Geostigma, at which point he does so because he doesn't want to burden his new little family. Regardless, it certainly doesn't prove what you seem to believe it does, and actually directly contradicts it. But then, you're also one of the people who used the first segment of a non-canon story as a basis while completely ignoring events later on in that same story that contradict the claim made in the first few paragraphs, so I suppose I shouldn't expect too much.

3. With DOC people bring up how Cloud and everyone else is not wearing their ribbon, and how that proves Cloud moved on with his life with Tifa. Just because Cloud moved on doesn't mean he moved on to start a romantic relationship with Tifa. Also how can you use this to prove Tifa and Cloud when this game was basically about Vincent and Tifa and Cloud was barely shown?

I agree that DoC is a horrible basis, as it holds almost no relevance to Cloud, Tifa, and Aerith. In fact, any appearances on their part were basically fanservice. People might as well claim that it was proof of Barret and Elmyra having a relationship, since it provides about as much detail for that as it does for Cloud/Tifa.

4. A thing I notice alot was that outside of FF7 Aeris and Cloud are seen more together or referenced. Such as Final Fantasy Tactics there was a scene with Cloud and a flower girl who resembled Aeris and Cloud when she asked him whats wrong he was speechless (it is later revealed that the flower girl name was indeed Aeris). Also in dissidia with cloud in the flower field (though not a romance) it is indeed a reference to aeris. Also in Itadaki Street (shows only cloud aeris sephiroth and tifa) game (only in japan) in the preview Cloud walks along side with Aeris. Now I am not saying this proves romance but it does proves that Tifa and Cloud love can only be that of friendship, because usually in about 99% of cases characters that are suppose to be canon pairings are usually reference togethere and Tifa other than FF7 isn't reference with Cloud in anything else. It is usuall Aeris and most often Sephiroth that always referenced to Cloud.

It proves nothing of the sort. You claim that characters who are supposed to be canon pairings are usually referenced together?

Cloud appears with Aerith in FF Tactics, IS, and KH.

Cloud appears with Sephiroth in FF Dissidia, IS, KH, KHII, Ergheiz, and makes references to him in just about every other appearance.

Ignoring the blatant flaws in your logic (For instance, the fact that they appear due to popularity, not significance. If that were the case, then half of the cameos that show up would be replaced with other characters. Or as another example, your insistance on referring to their number of appearances together, rather than the nature of those appearances. Or the fact that your claim regarding their appearances together in other materials being evidence of an intended canon relationship has absolutely no basis in the first place), this would indicate that Cloud/Sephiroth is what's intended to be canon.

It's always amusing to go through the various flaws and inconsistencies in posts like this. The vast majority of your points have consisted of either making things up completely out of the blue, blatantly ignoring things that contradict the segments of the materials that you use as a basis, and basing things on a variety of non-canon materials.

...Wow, felt good to get that out of my system. Haven't been in one of these debates for a long, long time now. I felt like I was starting to get a bit rusty.

Even if you poin t those out I can conuter by saying there is also no proof of Tifa and Cloud. To say Tifa know is true tought and feeling I would say is false. Cloud has a hard time admitting his feelings to anyone Tifa especially and to be honest the only person who probably knew his true self is probably Sephiroth as you stated through manipulation and Zack through is time with him in soldiers. And yes they slept in same room but different beds and that proves nothing. As I said overall I can't see Cloud being romantically involve with either Aeris nor Tifa and I believe SE made the story that way for a reason. I believe in the end TifaxCloud or AerisxCloud is not canon only fandom. To me I don't think cloud can choose one over the other. Also i see it weird and believe ppl would think different if it was tifa who died instead.... But overall I can see points in both cloti and cleris views but in the end unless stated by the creator neither are canon

Even if you poin t those out I can conuter by saying there is also no proof of Tifa and Cloud. To say Tifa know is true tought and feeling I would say is false. Cloud has a hard time admitting his feelings to anyone Tifa especially and to be honest the only person who probably knew his true self is probably Sephiroth as you stated through manipulation and Zack through is time with him in soldiers.

Considering that Tifa knew him when they were children, saw his innermost thoughts while she literally shifted through his memories with his guidance, and spent the next several years living with him, it's pretty safe to say that she knows a decent bit about his true self.

And yes they slept in same room but different beds and that proves nothing.

Evidence would indicate otherwise. We never see their room in any materials. On the other hand, the novel makes no mention of any movement when they look at one another when going to sleep, and they were apparently close enough to be able to make out expressions and features regardless of the lack of lighting that would come with the night, implying that even if they were in separate beds (Which has no evidence to support it. Some have used the room we see in Advent Children, but that room quite clearly belongs to Denzel and Marlene, given that it's adorned with drawings, toys, models, etc, etc), they were in pretty close physical proximity.

As I said overall I can't see Cloud being romantically involve with either Aeris nor Tifa and I believe SE made the story that way for a reason. I believe in the end TifaxCloud or AerisxCloud is not canon only fandom. To me I don't think cloud can choose one over the other. Also i see it weird and believe ppl would think different if it was tifa who died instead.... But overall I can see points in both cloti and cleris views but in the end unless stated by the creator neither are canon

The thing about that? The creators have all but come out and actually stated that it is canon. They've acknowledged that the reason why they left a scene with Cloud and Tifa coming out of a room in the Highwind (Replaced with the scene where they're together shortly before confronting Sephiroth) out of the game only because they thought it would be too racey. They've refered to Tifa as a koibito (Translated to "lover" in quite a literal sense) in regards to her relationship with Cloud. They've said that in AC, Cloud and Tifa would be together, and that everyone would be back at home where they belonged. So the logic you're presenting is this:

The creators have stated that they live together. The creators have stated that they're a family. The creators have explicitly referred to Tifa as a lover (And in the literal sense) regarding her position in Cloud's life. But just because they said that she's a lover who lives with him and has a family with him, it doesn't imply that they're in a relationship.

Does that about sum it up?

Bah. I'm tired. Need to get some sleep.

you point out good points but their still only onesided your obviouslly a cloti fan. As much as it points to tifaxcloud it points to aerisxcloud. So i guess in away you can say their both canon. And i'm sorry but tifa never really knows his innermost thought she only know what cloud shared to her and she barely knew him as a child because she never gave him the light of day. The only time they really talked was the night at the well. And going back to Cloud's location in the Case of Tifa how do you know where he went? H e could of went to the church, just because he told tifa one thing doesn't mean he is honest. And it seem you avoided when I asked if it had been Tifa who died would you thoughts be same. To me I feel the only reason Tifa and Cloud may have chance is because Aeris died I believe if she would have never died it would be difficult to prove the tifaxcloud 'canon' and if aeris and tifa swapped i thing it would still be same predicament except tifa would be dead and people would have the same bulls**t claims of aerisxcloud. But as i said Cloud will probably never choose one over the other whether aeris dead or not.

i hope you do have a good night.

this forum points out good facts also i concluded there is no real intended canon

http://forums.eyesonff.com/compilation-final-fantasy-vii/70574-relationship-between-cloud-tifa-11.html

As much as it points to tifaxcloud it points to aerisxcloud. So i guess in away you can say their both canon.

If that's the case, then you should have no problems showing us where in the official sources Cloud/Aeris' equal evidence can be found to directly counter the Cloud/Tifa statements. So far as I can see, only one side has decisive, direct statements supported by actual events within the story while the other side only has a 'what might have been if lots of things had happened and lots of other things hadn't happened'.

And i'm sorry but tifa never really knows his innermost thought she only know what cloud shared to her

The same can be said about Aeris, really, but you don't seem to be all that bothered about it on Aeris' side so I'm not sure why you're holding this as a point against Tifa.

and she barely knew him as a child because she never gave him the light of day.

'Never game him the light of day'? Are you saying that Tifa ignored him? Because that would be incorrect. The only way she could have ignored him was if she had known that he wanted to be friends and she deliberately turned him away. But she couldn't have ignored him because she never even knew that he wanted to be close to her in the first place.

Young Cloud's own behaviour towards others was what kept him out of the group. Cloud himself acknowledges during the Lifestream scene that it was his attitude that was at fault: he was distant, his insecurities caused him to treat others like they were 'stupid', he acted like he was better than them, and then he regularly picked fights with them.

Tifa had always been drawn to Cloud. She even thought he was cute back when they were younger. They didn't become close until later because Cloud's attitude drove people away. But the moment Cloud made an effort to approach Tifa without the bad attitude and showed his desire to be friends with her, she responded by immediately opening up to him and becoming his friend.

No matter how much you want to contest it, Tifa was the only one in Nibelheim that Cloud got along with. Even if they weren't that close back then, he was still closer to her more than any other of his peers. Tifa was the only one who truly knew the real Cloud during the game and right now, she's the one who knows him best. The only other people who were close enough to know the real Cloud were his mother and Zack -- both of whom were already dead by the time the game started.

The only time they really talked was the night at the well.

According to the official timeline, the scene at the water tower took place in December, and Cloud said that he was leaving in the spring, which means that there was the period between that night and the following spring (which would begin around March) before his departure for Midgar. I find it highly unlikely that they would not have met up and gotten to known each other more during those 3-plus months.

And going back to Cloud's location in the Case of Tifa how do you know where he went? H e could of went to the church, just because he told tifa one thing doesn't mean he is honest.

So you're saying that Cloud is dishonest?

And it seem you avoided when I asked if it had been Tifa who died would you thoughts be same.

That's a huge 'what if' worthy of a fanfic, so I'm not sure what place it has in a debate.

Still, for what it's worth, if Tifa had died in the game, I view it as extremely likely that no one on Gaia would have survived to see the outcome of anything let alone a little footnote like the love triangle. Because no matter what, Sephiroth would still have made Cloud fall into his drooling, catatonic, mental vegetable state and without Tifa to help him open up and piece himself together, he'd likely have stayed drooling, catatonic and mentally vegetated, incapable of standing up to Sephiroth right up until the world explodes and everybody on the planet dies painful, horrible deaths.

Even if the rest of AVALANCHE were somehow able to stop Sephiroth from winning and destroying the planet, there's still no assurance that Cloud would recover from his Mako poisoning. It's possible that they might find a way to restore him to normality, but 'possible' isn't a sure thing.

So IMO whether or not the planet survives, if Tifa had died, there really wouldn't be much left of the triangle to mull over.

You point out good points but I must say in the end I think its best Cloud was never paired with anyone. If SE would have pick either one it would have probably ruin the effect of the game. The point that he never picked anyone to me is what make this ff different from the other ones. You say my views are against Tifa but I say your views is more Cloti. Honestly I think he loves both of them but not romantically.

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