"Burn."

I love you, even if I don't love TifaXVincent.

But alas, I'm still kind of iffy on what I said. It wasn't nice and it was mostly typed out while I was hyped on adrenaline from anger. So here I go again, asking for yet another apology for my outburst folks. I certainly hope that hasn't turned anyone else off from here.

Anyway on to the topic...

I'm actually thinking that I'm a pretty disturbed person because another pairing I like look really similar and they could definately pass off as brother and sister. Link x Zelda, those two are so alike in appearance and personality that they might be twins. But of course this isn't a Legend of Zelda topic, unless I've stumbled into one by accident.

I would like to say that I'm not like most people. I don't like to judge people by appearance, but two of the best looking (my opinion, natch) FFVII characters are my favorites. I'd like to say that I like them just by their personality, but I'm sure I wouldn't obsess over them as much if I didn't consider them good looking. Isn't that sad?

However after my first view of them (Whoa! Tifa's a hot chick and ZOMG! Vincent's smexy), personality wise, they're great too. I remember that I used to be like Tifa when I was younger (shy and soft-spoken) and maybe that's why she appeals to me. And Vincent (at least my interpretation of him) is so much like me now that I can't help but like him. So maybe in a way, I see it as my past self merging with my present self and coexisting harmoniously. Which is really sick if you think about it.

I've never thought of them as unable to have any type of romantic relationship with anyone. Tifa's a strong woman and can hold her own. Vincent has been through much that it's hard to believe that he can be so...angsty. I, myself, have been through struggles that have certainly affected my personality greatly, however I've overcome them as well. So I'm pretty damn sure Vincent has too.

And then we get into the Lucrecia/Cloud factor concerning the two. I've had a first love before. And while it didn't pan out quite like I wanted to, the experience has helped me move on to a even better person who I love more.

Now I'm sure someone wants to throw this back in my face when I said I can separate the game from my own personal life. I still can. I'm just using my own personal setting and applying it. At the same time, I think it's just a game and these aren't real people. So I don't really get upset when someone says quite the opposite of what I believe.

Edit: You know what I hate, thinking of something better and having to go back redo it. I'm lazy. The computer I'm using should be powerful enough to figure out what I want to type and do it for me. :P

Not Shinsetsu, but I can think of only two instances where it can be construed that Tifa lied to Cloud, but not blatantly.

The biggest lie was that Tifa should have told Cloud that he was not in Nibelheim the way that he narrates in Kalm. But if she had told him that he was wrong, she herself would have been wrong because the fact is that he WAS there. And the fact that Cloud could recite the events so truthfully except that he had taken on Zack's role made Tifa really confused. Tifa probably doubted her own memory considering that it was a very traumatic experience for her. Not only did she lose her hometown, and her only family, she was gravely injured. I think those are enough reasons for her not to trust her own memory, and because of her trust and *faith* in Cloud, she chose to believe him. Perhaps she was wrong. Perhaps she should have told him earlier than the lifestream incident. But suppose in Kalm she had stopped him and said, "No, Cloud you weren't there." Perhaps Cloud would have suddenly regained his memory and realized what happened. That seems unlikely, but possible. But perhaps he believed her. And then he began to doubt himself. And then when they go to the Northern Crater and Sephiroth creates the Nibelheim illusion in their head and Sephiroth tells him he's nothing but a clone, instead of Cloud being confident in himself and making this wonderful speech to Tifa: "Why are you so scared? Don't worry about me. I'm all right. No matter how confused I am, I'll never believe a word that Sephiroth says. It's true that sometimes I can't figure out who I am. There's a lot of things muddled up in my memories. But, Tifa...... But you said 'Long time no see, Cloud' right? Those words will always support me. I am the one you grew up with. I'm Cloud of Nibelheim. No matter how much I lose faith in myself, that is the truth. That's why you shouldn't be so scared. No matter what anyone else says to me, it's your attitude that counts..." he'll look at her and wonder, "Maybe he's right," the way Tifa does, and immediately succumb to Sephiroth. I'm thinking, either way, Cloud was going to give that Black Materia to Sephiroth, whether Tifa told him her fears, or not. But of course we'll never really know the answer.

The other thing I can see why people think Tifa lied to Cloud is about their childhood. She believed they were childhood friends. And the truth is they weren't. Not really. Cloud adored her, but she never really paid him any attention. But I think it's evident that Tifa liked Cloud, or she never would have agreed to meet him at the well when they were teenagers. And from that moment on she did become a little infatuated with him, which is why she thought about him often and wondered if he ever made it into SOLDIER. And I think that infatuation over the two years between Cloud leaving and the Nibelheim incident, and the traumatic experience of that and how she continued to think of him in the five years that followed, colored her memories of their childhood. And when she gets to see Cloud's subconscious in the Lifestream, she immediately realizes her mistake. And Cloud understands her because she was going through a rough time then, and had a lot going on.

So perhaps they're lies. But I don't think it's all that black and white.

But even if you believe she did lie, Vincent is not so moral that he is above lying himself. He was a Turk. And he lied to Lucrecia about something very personal. Perhaps if he had told Lucrecia the truth she would have gone after Sephiroth herself. Perhaps she could have gotten to his cold heart and made him realize that what he was doing was wrong. Perhaps Sephiroth would have run her through with the masamune. Alas, we'll never know.

Maybe, though, Vincent *should* have someone who is always personally honest. Good luck to him finding someone like that. I don't know all the ins and outs of Yuffie, but I find it hard to believe that she'd never lie or withold information about personal matters. But I don't think he needs it, nor does he want it. Vincent loved the most flawed, undeserving, disgusting creature in the game. If he could love her, surely he could love Tifa.

Vincent couldn't wait for someone's life to be in danger in order for that kind of honesty? He waited until the whole planet was in danger before doing anything about it. When he found out that Sephiroth was running amuck bent on world domination, he planned to go back to sleep. And he waited until after Lucrecia was pregnant and doing experiments on her child before voicing his objections. Other people's danger does not affect how he feels about their honesty. I don't even see how the two ideas are connected. Lucrecia rejected him for another man, and experimented on her child, which he was morally against, and he still loved her. So I don't think that if Tifa lied to him, (which she has never done), he would be unable to forgive her.

As for encouraging each other's negative attitudes, I have to contest that as well. Tifa really doesn't have a negative attitude. As Shinsetsu pointed out, the similar lost love angle is contingent on Cloud leaving Tifa miserable and alone in search of the flowergirl or himself, which he hasn't really done. Sure in AC he basically abandons her, but once she figures out that he did it b/c he was afraid, she basically forgives him, (which I personally don't think she should, at least not so quickly). But what Tifa does have is a very compassionate nature, and even with that experience of Cloud leaving her because of his illness, that still gives her a plane in which she can empathize with Vincent about. But she never encourages him to wallow in self-pity. And Vincent never encourages her either. In fact he warns her against having an all-consuming love, which could lead her to despair.

I think AC proves that Tifa does not coddle too much. Because if she did, she would never have gotten angry with Cloud and basically smacked some sense into him to go after the children. And if she had scolded Cloud sooner, you can bet that the same people bitching about her waiting too long, would be calling her a nagging harpy for yelling at Cloud when he was obviously depressed and uneasy...and sick. And Tifa does not always tell people everything will be all right. Sometimes she needs people to tell it to her. She's optimistic, but she also sees things realistically. These qualities make her good for Vincent because while she can motivate people to do what needs to be done, which Vincent could use considering his tendency to wait around, (which isn't always true,) she isn't pushy or obnoxious about it either. She told Cloud what needed to be said, but it was still Cloud himself who ultimately decided to do it.

While Tifa doesn't outright admit her feelings for Cloud, she doesn't hide them. I think everyone knows how she feels, even Cloud, but they're afraid of breaking the status quo. And Vincent, I can't really say he hides his feelings at all. He's very clear about his love for Lucrecia. He opened himself up for rejection, which is a very brave thing to do. He made his feelings about the experimentation being done on Hojo clear. He openly admired Cid for his go-get-em attitude. Perhaps he's private about his feelings at first, but he eventually tells the ones he cares about.

I can't argue appearance. I personally find Vincent and Tifa to be the two most attractive figures in the game. I think they look lovely together. And they don't look alike just because they have the same colouring. But it really annoys me the way people assume that people are related b/c they have the same coloring when they look nothing alike. It's generalization. All blondes do not look alike. All black people do not look alike. All asian people do not look alike. It is almost disrespectful the way that people can't take the time to really look at a person. That's a pet peeve of mine.

Anyway, I think Vincent and Tifa are just as compatible as any coupling in FF7. They just happen to be a personal fave to me. And sometimes that is as simple or "shallow" as liking one's personal appearance over another, or disliking another's childish behavior.

The trailers I've seen only had Yuffie in one of them, so maybe I've missed the ones with a lot of interaction between him and Yuffie. Also this is a Tifa x Vincent topic, please post accordingly next time.

Edit: Yargh! Okay, I totally took that the wrong way, not upsetting, but more like huh? Could you please expand on that thought, Sapphire. Thank you muches!

Anyway... stop apologizing for outbursts. Diplomacy sucks and you were speaking truthfully and openly. Remember: Being offended is a CHOICE. I believe you touched on this... anyone who gets upset or offended MADE THE CHOICE to come on here and read this stuff, probably just for the sake of picking an argument, and made the choice to get upset. Bitch 'em out, sugar.

Besides... it's entertaining to me. :D

I fully believe that Tifa delayed revealing the entire story to Cloud because she thought he was unstable. Secondly, she didn't know the entire story, either. He was remembering things he shouldn't have known as far as she was concerned—and while she might have said, "Hey, Cloud? You weren't there, you know," it wouldn't have done any good. Because he WAS there. She just was unaware of it. She didn't know why he remembered these things any more than he thought he did, and she wouldn't know what to make of it. Asking him wouldn't have brought them any answers. As far as Advent Children is concerned, I'd really call it patience more than anything. They thought the threat was gone—it wasn't as if danger was afoot every day and Tifa put off speaking about how frustrated he was making her. Cloud? Is not responsible for Marlene. She is Barret's daughter. Far be it from Tifa to foist that responsibility on him. Denzel is a slightly different story, since Cloud did bring him home. But Tifa did agree to take him in, knowing that Cloud had his own issues to sort out, and that he had never quite been the same since the whole Aerith/Meteor/Immafailedpuppet fiasco. Personally Tifa strikes me as someone who is realistic and knows that baggage weighs people down, everyone has it, and it takes time to work through. And if Cloud ever did decide that he wanted to be with her, I don't think that she would jump straight into that, either. I think that his distance and the way it has affected her emotionally would stay with her for a long while, perhaps for decades.

But it doesn't mean that she would have to dwell on it every day.

As far as Vincent being mopey—did it ever occur to anyone that perhaps the reason he shut himself off from the rest of the world was because he was having trouble controlling himself? Maybe he felt like actively living was a cruel mockery of what happened to Lucrecia. Being given immortality and near invincibility was a fairly ironic punishment, don't you think? Perhaps it wasn't so much that he felt unworthy, as in light of the circumstances, it seemed pretty blasphemous to him. After Hojo locked his door, he did get an opportunity to leave, six years prior to the game when the exiled Turk leader and your playable character stumble across his coffin. But he opts to stay and 'atone'. My personal opinion? He wouldn't know what to do with himself in the modern world. Like a prisoner who has been lost in the time-flow of technology and innovation, he wouldn't be good for any honest work—does he have any valid identification? Does a death certificate count? Maybe Chaos wanted to sleep—after all, he was still waiting on his own destiny. Perhaps his demons were very strong when they were first implanted, and he had to learn an entirely new form of self-control and impose his own limits. It wouldn't do well to have a dangerous androgyne running amok, ripping random strangers to shreds because he's having a bout of mania in the morning.

Vincent and Tifa both strike me as empaths. They are actually very well-adjusted people, considering what's gone on in their lives, until the shit hits the fan. I don't believe that Tifa coddles everyone. I think she only does what she thinks she can for an individual's particular situation. Remember when Red XIII asks, "Will I go crazy, too?" or something to that effect in the Ghost Hotel? Tifa stomps her foot down and says, "Be strong!" I also don't think that Vincent always knows what he's doing. Sure, go down to the lab unarmed and pick a fight with a crazy person. For the record, I don't believe what happened to Lucrecia was entirely his fault, but I don't think he's any more completely honest than Tifa is. He didn't speak up when Lucrecia gave him the opportunity to, asking, "IF it only concerns me." No, he went and confronted Hojo AFTER she became a festering ball of ick.

Under duress? Sure, Vince and Tifa would probably have trouble communicating at first. But what couple doesn't? Moreover, if it's difficult at first, should we simply give up? I think that these two are actually quite persistent. Passive, sometimes, but very thoughtful—weighing the situation. True, this sometimes does lead to inaction. But not always. I honestly just see it as patience. Patience is just as important as honesty. Long-suffering (which does not mean suffering for a long time, so don't be silly) and compassion involve a high level of understanding. You cannot love someone if you're not willing to put in the effort it takes to really know them, just like you can't be sorry if you don't know why, and no one is going to pat you on the back for resisting a sin you weren't even tempted to commit in the first place.

I do not think that either of them are interested in simply dating around, or testing the waters. Friends with benefits, perhaps, depending on how a story is spun, but not jumping into a fun relationship like a couple of teenagers. They've been through too much. Either they'd start some sort of agreement thinking that neither of them were emotionally ready to tackle something real, or they'd instead consider that something real, and be looking for a permanent thing that they would commit to working on every day. Like normal adults with a grounded scope of reality, who don't break up after one fight or only want to stay until they find something better. If they are over people they'll never have, then I can see this most definitely. If they're not over people, I can see them entering some sort of beneficiary agreement and it possibly developing into more. Either way, they work. YES THEY DO.

I feel like the two of them have the most opportunity for growth together. Real relationships are full of trials. They're about growing as individuals and as a couple, about exploring the most beautiful AND ugly sides of each other. They're about USING EXPERIENCES and learning from them. This couple is far from static—it's blissfully dynamic. I don't think they would drag each other down—from what I've seen of AC, Tifa seems ready to live a normal life. The important thing is that each of them knows where the other is coming from. I wouldn't go so far as to parallel their histories and call them the same... but I think that they are very alike in personality. I think they handle things similarly. I think that they are both patient and stubborn when the situation calls for it. And I think that they take steps back and evaluate their circumstances—of course there are exceptions to this; if someone I cared about was being eaten alive by alien cells, I'd probably try to beat the crap out of a scientist too, gun or no gun. But as far as relationship issues go, I think these two both have the endurance to work pretty much anything out. They seem like the type who would want to cover everything, know everything, embrace each other's darkest sides and thus feel more free to have that complete and open honesty. Really, I see them as the only two characters who are patient enough to have complete and open honesty, and who would accept each other's flaws. I mean, what does complete and open honesty count for, if you can't trust the other person to not run away? So what, if it takes a while? They have their entire lives.

The heart is a muscle, you know. It needs exercise just like any other.

Personally, I prefer Tifa over Yuffie when it comes to being paired with Vincent. But I do agree; they both have an equal chance of working out.

I'm always fascinated by the fans who call Tifa a liar. Tifa knows what she saw —and when Cloud starts telling a different story, and omitting the part about where he met up with her there when she was injured at the reactor, it probably sounded to her like he forgot all about the fact that she was there to prove him wrong. For all she knew he was telling a tall tale to impress her or the others. If she had gotten up the courage to say something, it might have been, "How dare you make a mockery of the real tragedy we endured," but how do you say that to someone who doesn't know they're lying?

Cloud didn't remember anything after confronting Sephiroth—he said it was like a blank. And that's the only part Tifa remembers seeing him for. So she didn't really know what was going on, either—only that he was lying. She could have said, "Hey, you're lying." But that wouldn't have done anything, because she didn't yet know how to fill in the blanks, either.

I don't know—I started reading and writing VincentxTifa before Advent Children came out, so I know it's not because there's 'no one else left'. I ship them for all the reasons I stated above. :)

And I'm not going to just shout "Get over it! Clotif or nothing!" but... sorry, I can't really see Tifa falling out of love with our favorite hero or visa versa.

I can't speak for all VincentxTifa fans, but I personally like this pairings for my own reasons. For starters, in some fandoms, most of the canon pairings either annoys or bores me. I like seeing something more original or uncommon at least once in a while. For me, it's not really the matter of if this pairing will happen in the fandom, it's more of a matter if this pairing could work out if it got a chance. I like both CloudxAeris and CloudxTifa, but I usually avoid fanfics with these pairings because they bore me. It's just if either of these pairings could happen in a future installment in the videogame series, I don't see much of a reason to bother reading fanfics about them. I prefer to leave that to the creators of the series. Also, Cloud annoys me a little, so I don't like reading too many fanfics with him being paired up. Don't get me wrong. I like the guy, but I can't help being annoyed with him about a few things he did. Same goes for Yuffie and a few other characters, except my annoyance with Cloud is more romantic related.

One of the reasons I like fanfiction is because we get the chance to experiment with things in the fandom we love. We can test different pairings, how characters might react to certain situlations, and even things that could of made character do things that they did. I'll be brutally honest with something. This pairing never even crossed my mind until I read a fanfic with it. It was my online friend's fanfic, so she deleted it with all her other stories after she quit the site for personal reasons (Please don't ask me what happened. I don't want to revive the drama). There are people that write amazing fanfics with this pairing, so I think this pairing could be pullled of if done right.

In a few situlations, this pairings could be possible. I usually prefer this pairing if Cloud can't return his feelings for her. Lucrecia doesn't seem to be returning anytime soon and I don't see Cloud's name on Tifa, so you never know.

I'll just leave it to that. There's a little more to my opinions, but I really don't feel like going into full detail. A lot of things in this post are only my opinion. Other people could like this pairing for their own reasons.

The basis I've always heard (and the one I see as most plausible) is that he's a lot like Cloud. She, in her very mother-like nurturing nature, would be drawn to him more than the other characters. Like you, I wouldn't see it as anything more than a natural and friendly concern for him, but it's certainly not too far-fetched to see them together.

I'm not saying that everyone who writes for them does this, but alot of what I see is people who are really into Cleris but want to get Tifa fans off their back, so their like "here! take your smokin hot ex-turk and go!" which is pretty uber annoying.

That's interesting; but if you think about it, she wins out anyway. If she gets with Cloud, then he gets a hottie. If she gets with Vincent, he gets... well, a corpse. Tifa, she gets a badass in both situations, so it's not like she'd have anything to complain about.

But I'll leave that argument where it is cuz that's not the topic.

If it relates back to the topic, then it's fair game. :)

To tell you the truth, I don't like pairings with Vincent as much as I used to, except for VincentxLucrecia (only because it's canon and hard to find).

Ugh, what they did with Lucrecia... man, unoriginality much?

I mean, c'mon, they coulda made her such a better character, but instead they decide to make it seem like she had feelings for him or something... even when she breaks up with him. Seriously. What the F? No offense, but I think they did it just to please fans that liked them together (ie you, which explains the no offense).

It just seems to me that SE doesn't WANT to let him change, they want to keep him an emo whiny pansy for the rest of his life. Or for however long they can keep milking the franchise.

I dunno, maybe it's just a bit TOO much soap opera drama for me.

It's just I don't like yaoi and most other pairings with him annoy me. I think VincentxYuffie is an okay pairing, but nowadays I usually avoid this pairing because people keep using the excuse, "opposites attract." It's just there's a limit for this saying and most Yuffitine fanfics don't pull it off too well even if they're well written.

1. Yaoi stories... yes... I can understand a yaoi pairing that's implied, specified, or otherwise alluded to in a story (ex. Toya/Yukito from Cardcaptor Sakura, Fei/Bart from Xenogears, maybe Vincent/Cloud), but putting two guys that don't really have anything to do with each other (Vincent/Loz, Vincent/Kadaj, Anybody/the three stooges, Vincent/Cid, Vincent/Barret, etc.) always irritates me to no end. Why, oh why, do people picture Vincent and Cid together? They have, like, ONE conversation in the game. And if you're gonna pimp Vincent off with everybody, why not show Cid the same love? Blah, rant over.

2. Vincent and Yuffie... I s'pose, in defense, the youth would offset the agelessness. But that's also more of an opposites attract deal than anything else, so... yeah...

Also, Cloud annoys me a little, so I don't like reading too many fanfics with him being paired up.

Is this a product of the butchering of his character as performed by SE's Compilation? Or has this always been a monkey on your back?

It was my online friend's fanfic, so she deleted it with all her other stories after she quit the site for personal reasons (Please don't ask me what happened. I don't want to revive the drama).

Don't know and don't care. So you're all good.

In a few situlations, this pairings could be possible. I usually prefer this pairing if Cloud can't return his feelings for her. Lucrecia doesn't seem to be returning anytime soon and I don't see Cloud's name on Tifa, so you never know.

You and me, we've got to get down and talk. See if we think alike on anything else besides this statement.

...you're not psychic, are you? You're not... reading my e-mind or anything, right?

That said, I find it hard for Cloud to NOT return her feelings, whether the fic's based on the game or the Compilation add-ons. The mere fact that Aerith is dead gets rid of a lot of his confusion, in contrast to the "he's with Tifa only because Aerith is dead" argument that some Clerith AND CloTi fans spout.

He also grows a lot closer to Tifa (again, throughout the game and throughout the Compilation). The Compilation actually makes it seem even more certain that his feelings lie with Tifa, but hey, who am I to say? Nomura won't, so I won't.

And since Tifa's already head over heels over him, it'd be hard for Vincent to get with her. He wouldn't want to, either. Being as mopey as he is in the Compilation, he'd rather be left alone that be with people. If a fic took place without the context of the Compilation to hinder it, then I'd be willing to accept this pairing. If it took place within the context of the Compilation, though... I'd say that it's a misfire.

About VincentxLucrecia, I only like the pairing. I'm not exactly in love with it. There are actually a few good fanfics with this pairing. The weird thing is that a lot of these fanfics don't have Lucrecia and Vincent get together either way. Since there aren't as many fanfics with VxL as some other pairings with Vincent, this pairings is a little more easier for me to bear because I don't have to worry about this pairings being overdone. I rarely hunt for fanfics with this pairing. I just stumbled on a few good ones, so I can't help but to like the pairing a little. About Yuffitines, it's not really Yuffie's age that puts me off. It's really rather if her personality would mix well with Vincent's.

My annoyance with Cloud doesn't really come from fanfics. It's just a few things about him in both FFVII and AC that annoys me just a little. I still like him, but I get annoyed with him just a little. The funny thing is that it's been so long since I read the script to FFVII or watched AC that I kinda forgot what made me annoyed with him. I may be starting to get over my annoyance with him right now since I'm starting to grow fond of Zack.

Now about Cloud possibly not returning his feelings for her. One major thing that could make it difficult for Cloud to return his feelings is if he died, but that probably can't be the only occasion. Another thing that could happen is for things to change. Romances aren't exactly as predictable in books as it is in real life. You may find yourself deeply in love with someone for a while, but sometimes you never get that person and wind up falling for someone else. Sometimes if you get the guy you want, a few years later, your feelings of the person might not be as deep as they used to be. There are probably various things that can change her feelings for Cloud. Not all lovers stay together for ever. A lot of people get married and think they'll always be together. Years later, the couple may start fighting over and over until they're driven to divorce. This shows that sometimes love can change eventually, but it's hard to predict. It's only possible. I never said it will happen. Cloud may even marry her in a future installment to the series and always be with her. We won't know for quite a while. Like I said, I prefer to leave some canon pairings to the creator themselves.

Like I mentioned, I'm not into VincentxTifa as much as I used to be. I barely hunt for fanfics with Vincent being paired up anymore. I actually like Vincent being alone rather than being paired up most of the time, but if I had to choose a pairing with him I would pick VincentxTifa. On some occasions, I read VincentxYuffie, but not many fanfics pull this pairing off too well. Once in a while I find fanfics with him being paired up so I can't avoid these type of fanfics too easily. Pressure in my life is probably making it difficult for me to enjoy some of the pairings I once liked. Maybe once summer comes and I get out of school, I might go back to enjoying VxT like I used to.

I know noone's said anything on here for a while but I thought I'd add for a bit.

The reason I don't like VincentxTifa is not because I don't like either Vincent or Tifa, because I do. It's just how I see Tifa's character. She's invested a huge amount of emotional energy into Cloud- she looks out for him when he has mako sickness, she stays with him when everyone leaves the highwind to find their reson to fight, in advant children she's sad when he leaves because she WANTS them to be a family. If for whatever reason she decides that it's not going to work out with Cloud, I just can't see her then trying to start up something with the only man on the Planet who has MORE issues and stuff to get over than Cloud. But maybe that's just me, I really do find Vincent and Tifa unconvincing. But each to their own, right?

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