Koi bito in the way it was used does not mean the lover of anyone specific. The old 'if not Cloud's lover, then whose?' has been thoroughly gotten rid of by us Senior Clerises. Think of it being used in the 'I'm a lover, not a fighter' sense of the word lover, as opposed to the possessive sense.

Second, more recently, it's been revealed the CloTi relationship is, and I quote, 'dim.' Can't twist that one. Dim relationships do not shine brightly. And indeed, why should they? Between Cloud and Tifa, there is no light. Just a mutual darkness.

And no, they don't share a room. That's conjecture. Further, Tifa in CoT tells Cloud to go drink in 'his room.' Not 'our room' 'his room.'

Lastly, there are few, if any, examples of affection of any sort from Cloud to Tifa. For all that she's been playing house, I don't think he's said so much as thank you. And Cloud just doesn't look at her (in the movie) the way he looks at a certain other girl. His eyes change every time he sees her. When he looks at Tifa, there's no 'lighting up' of his face that one might expect to see. It's just...normal Cloud. He only lights up for someone else, who shall remain nameless because it's the wrong thread.

As for mutual darkness, what do you mean by that exactly?

I don't claim to know Japanese well, but everytime I've seen this word used, it's been meant as "my lover" or "the one that I love/am in love with." If someone could show me the exact wording "Koi bito" was used in Advent, it'd be greatly appreciated.

And no, they don't share a room. That's conjecture. Further, Tifa in CoT tells Cloud to go drink in 'his room.' Not 'our room' 'his room.'

I'll agree with you in that sharing a room is conjecture. For all we know, Tifa sleeps on the couch downstairs. What's that? There's no couch downstairs? How do you know? But seriously, that's my point exactly. No one (aside from SquareEnix) knows the layout of the bar/hostel/whatever the heck it is they live in. I just realized this part sounded stupid. What I meant is that aside from gleaning a blueprint based on what people have seen from the movie, does not mean they live in a two-room shack. "One room is Denzel's or the children's and the other MUST be Tifa and Cloud's room." No, sorry. Show me a blueprint drawn up by SquareEnix please.

Lastly, there are few, if any, examples of affection of any sort from Cloud to Tifa. For all that she's been playing house, I don't think he's said so much as thank you.

I "play house" all day, I don't expect a thank you. Yes, it's nice to hear but that doesn't mean it's going to happen that much more. And you know, it comes from my own experience that examples of affection don't happen every single hour of the day. And you have to think that during Advent, Tifa and Cloud were sort of on the outs. He was having mental problems (or whatever) and not speaking to her about it. And then of course, the SHM show up and muck up everything. I probably wouldn't be thinking about affection of any sort while the planet is in danger once again.

I'm not saying that there is love/romance between Cloud and Tifa, but lack of affection (based off a two-hour or so movie) doesn't prove that love/romance is not there.

MoreEdit by Bleu: Cripes. By exact wording, I mean the non-translated Japanese script. Okay, I think I'm done.

"There are many dimensions to Tifa's characters, she's like a mother, a sweetheart, and an ally in battle." The english translation of it. They translated it sweetheart, for crying out loud, not lover.

In fact, however, there are only the following list of possibilities to show examples of affection between this couple or any other.

In order:

Crisis Core/Last Order: He brushed her hair out of her face, but failed to render any sort of first aid. Zangan did that, not Cloud.

Final Fantasy 7:This has been argued to death for 10 years straight, especially since the affection grid is entirely optional.

Case of Tifa:They fight a whole lot more then they're happy.

Advent Children:As you said, there's a lack of affection.

Dirge of Cerberus:There's nothing here for anyone in this game. It's blank on relationships other then Vincent's.

Case of Denzel:Also effectively blank concerning the future. Some of it backscenes to the Case of Tifa era.

Okay, they didn't fit much affection into a two hour movie...but then, where did they PUT it? Nowhere, that's where. You might get a scattered example here and there, but Case of Tifa reads more like case for a divorce then staying together.

Y'see, the thing here is that we CAN think of it in the "I'm a lover, not a fighter" sense, but we can ALSO think of it in the "I'm actually his lover" sense. And like he said, what source did you get this information from? (This in regards to the translation you found, as well.)

Second, more recently, it's been revealed the CloTi relationship is, and I quote, 'dim.' Can't twist that one. Dim relationships do not shine brightly. And indeed, why should they? Between Cloud and Tifa, there is no light. Just a mutual darkness.

It's been revealed? When was this and how? Granted, I haven't kept up with the Compilation for about half a year now, but I seriously doubt that SE would come out and say that their relationship is, as you say, "dim." As far as there being little light on them, it seems to me that they happen to be in the midst of really dramatic times. Extremely dramatic. Excessively dramatic, one might say.

And no, they don't share a room. That's conjecture. Further, Tifa in CoT tells Cloud to go drink in 'his room.' Not 'our room' 'his room.'

Was there an official English version of this story? (I have the slight inkling that there is; it was included in an English release, right?) But if the translation isn't an official one (or done by an accredited translator), then it means absolutely nothing here.

Lastly, there are few, if any, examples of affection of any sort from Cloud to Tifa. For all that she's been playing house, I don't think he's said so much as thank you. And Cloud just doesn't look at her (in the movie) the way he looks at a certain other girl. His eyes change every time he sees her. When he looks at Tifa, there's no 'lighting up' of his face that one might expect to see. It's just...normal Cloud. He only lights up for someone else, who shall remain nameless because it's the wrong thread.

Seems like you're putting this nameless person on a pedestal, because she herself seems to have a whole bunch of flaws... many of which got her killed.

But I wouldn't be so quick to say that his face doesn't "light up" when he sees Tifa. And who's to say that it HAS to light up? If anything, a face "lighting up" seems to indicate that the person is in awe or reverence or having some sort of epiphany, which means that the person doing the "lighting up" (ie Aerith) is some sort of holy figure to him.

Does YOUR face light up every time you see your boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse/etc.?

In order:

Crisis Core/Last Order: He brushed her hair out of her face, but failed to render any sort of first aid. Zangan did that, not Cloud.

Final Fantasy 7:This has been argued to death for 10 years straight, especially since the affection grid is entirely optional.

Case of Tifa:They fight a whole lot more then they're happy.

Advent Children:As you said, there's a lack of affection.

Dirge of Cerberus:There's nothing here for anyone in this game. It's blank on relationships other then Vincent's.

Case of Denzel:Also effectively blank concerning the future. Some of it backscenes to the Case of Tifa era.

Okay, they didn't fit much affection into a two hour movie...but then, where did they PUT it? Nowhere, that's where. You might get a scattered example here and there, but Case of Tifa reads more like case for a divorce then staying together.

Crisis Core/Last Order: He had more pressing issues at hand, like going after Sephiroth.

FFVII: It's been argued over for 10 years straight, and there's still been no conclusion to it. But the affection grid (I'm assuming it's either the date thing or that chart that shows everybody's relationship with everybody) isn't the only point of argument.

Case of Tifa: I haven't read this at all, but again, unless it's an official translation (which I wouldn't doubt), it's basically meaningless.

Advent Children: There's the underlying affection. There's the unspoken affection. There's the yearning in her eyes for his sweet sweet manflesh. What I mean is that there are a lot of things that someone can pick up from the movie while someone else doesn't.

Dirge of Cerberus: Well, when Vincent's talking to Cloud and Tifa, there's a slight inflection in his voice. This inflection clearly indicates that he realizes the love blossoming between the two, and that he feels greatly inferior to them and wishes to find his own lover; his rashness in doing so ends up getting him in the sack with a ten-year old girl whose mind is so screwy that she thinks she's both 19 and twenty-something and dead at the same time. Ole!

Case of Denzel: Won't argue that point since I know jack about it.

As far as affection goes, it isn't the only factor that determines a romance. This is just a snippet of their lives. A bad, dramatic, and down-trodden snippet that drips with fanservice and fuel for emo-fire and whatnot, but it's a snippet nonetheless.

I mean, it's not like he can have any more snippets with Aerith... Unless she goes all ape-shit like Sephiroth and revives herself to take over the world.

1) There is no such thing as "koi bito". There is "koi" meaning "love", there is "hito" meaning "person", and when together, the two form a new word: "koibito" which means "lover".

2) "Sweetheart" can carry a range of meanings, not necessarily romantic, but one of those meanings is "lover". So calling Tifa a "sweetheart" in no way disqualifies her from being a lover. Added to that, however much you want to argue about the flexibility of "sweetheart"'s meanings, the Japanese "koibito" is unashamedly precise and unarguably romantic, seeing as how its root word "koi" very specifically means "love" in the romantic sense.

3) You can say "I'm a lover, not a fighter" in English, but not in Japanese, at least, not using "koibito". Again, "koibito" has a very specific meaning and use.

4) Regarding the sentence about Tifa's roles, the English text "like a mother, a lover and an ally" does make it sound like Tifa is only 'like' all of those. However, the Japanese text gives a very different picture: "haha no you de ari, koibito de ari, isshou ni tatakattekita sen'yuu de mo ari", which says that Tifa is "like a mother", she "is a lover", she "is also an ally who fights together/alongside". So the English text is yet another example of an imprecise translation, one of many in FFVII. It gets the words technically correct, but uses them in a way that changes the meaning of the translated sentence from the original one.

Much the same with any of these other threads.

Also, if one were to say 'He is a lover, not a fighter' in Japanese, but could not use the word 'koibito' for fear of sending the wrong message, what would he say instead?

Were the translators well-qualified to convey the correct meaning when working on the English version? Did they consult with the Japanese directors? I would think it would have to be authorized by both parties, or at least believe that anyone hired to do that work would be aware of the intricacies involved with terms versus meanings. It seems more likely to me that the word 'koibito' was used because there was no other way to say it in Japanese than it is likely that the Japanese to English translators threw in the word "like" for the fun of it—mostly because the English language has more ways of saying it thus, and has a wider range of choice in how it is put. But that is just conjecture.

This question isn't meant to reflect my opinion for either side of the argument, but is a mere curiosity.

Even if Tifa was called 'one who loves (in the romantic sense)', or 'one who is full of Eros', it doesn't necessarily mean that she and Cloud are in a stable or permanent relationship. I would like to know where the distinction between 'real' and 'fake' families comes in, as in, "I guess that only works for real families." If by 'real' she meant 'functional', it doesn't seem in line with the rest of the nature of the conversation. More like a hit below the belt.

You mean using "koibito" as a description of personality? Not so far as I have encountered, but I seriously doubt that it can. "Koi", as according to what I've learnt and heard, is romantic love. Some dictionaries explain it as "love (for the opposite sex)", which would make it extremely unlikely to fit into the context of a romantic outlook in life.

Also, if one were to say 'He is a lover, not a fighter' in Japanese, but could not use the word 'koibito' for fear of sending the wrong message, what would he say instead?

I do not know. Only that "koibito" is not the word to use.

Were the translators well-qualified to convey the correct meaning when working on the English version? Did they consult with the Japanese directors? I would think it would have to be authorized by both parties, or at least believe that anyone hired to do that work would be aware of the intricacies involved with terms versus meanings.

I don't know what procedures the translators went through, whether or not they consulted with the Japanese directors. I would have thought that it would have to be authorised by both parties, too, but since it's entirely possible that Nomura et al. don't speak English/don't speak enough English, I'm not sure how they would have been able to check and make sure that everything had been translated correctly. As it is, though, the Compilation still has a better translation than the original game even though it has its share of glaring mistakes.

It seems more likely to me that the word 'koibito' was used because there was no other way to say it in Japanese than it is likely that the Japanese to English translators threw in the word "like" for the fun of it—mostly because the English language has more ways of saying it thus, and has a wider range of choice in how it is put. But that is just conjecture.

The "like" is there in the Japanese, but only for "mother"; "haha no you". The "no you" bit is the one translated as "like". It is absent from "koibito" and "sen'yuu".

If the text was meant to say that Tifa is like all of those three (mother, sweetheart/lover, ally), then it would use "no you" for all of those ("haha no you, koibito no you, sen'yuu no you").

As it stands, the text explains that Tifa has many roles in the movie: She is like a mother. She is a lover. She is an ally.

Even if Tifa was called 'one who loves (in the romantic sense)', or 'one who is full of Eros', it doesn't necessarily mean that she and Cloud are in a stable or permanent relationship.

Given that:

- Cloud's the only one she's expressed a romantic interest in;

- Tifa's the one shown to be at the core of Cloud's "secret wish, tender memories";

- the game has shown that Cloud and Tifa revealed their tender feelings for one another in the Lifestream (and this was confirmed by the creators);

- Cloud and Tifa reaffirmed those same feelings beneath the Highwind (confirmed by the creators);

- Cloud and Tifa shared an intimate night together beneath the Highwind, described by the creators as "risque". Even the morning after scene that we are familiar with (they wake up together) was said by the creators to have been a toned down version from the more explicit/crass scene that they were originally going to put in;

- Cloud wasted no time in moving in with Tifa after the game, and also tells her straight up that she is what gives him hope to live his new life;

- they adopt Denzel together;

- they are back together again by the end of AC (confirmed by the creators)

... I would say that "koibito/lover" is just one of many things that mean that she and Cloud are in a stable and permanent relationship.

I wouldn't want the kind of person I am to be tied to who I am with. I wouldn't think that someone who is a kind or giving lover would be any less of a kind or giving lover if they were currently without a partner. I would think a lot of that depended on the tone in which it was said and who said it. But if I introduced you to someone at a party and said, "She's motherly, sleeps with that guy over there, and is there when I need her," you'd think I was pretty rude. More likely I would say, "she loves much," or "she's a romantic," not "she boinks". But even if I were to randomly bring up the fact that a person I knew was in a current romantic relationship, that hardly seems like the type of thing to lump in (specifically in the sense of current and actively sensual) with the fact that one is motherly and can be trusted to fight alongside with you.

That's like saying someone is wonderful because they are motherly, reliable, and are by the way in a current relationship. This is why I believe the statement reflects the kind of person she is, not that she is in fact enjoying the way her relationship is going.

And if I were in her position, I wouldn't feel that my relationship is stable (getting back together implies that there was a separation, after all). And the existence of a relationship at one point in time, no matter how far back it goes, isn't a guarantee that it will be there in the future.

You wouldn't even say "She's motherly, she's a lover, and she's there when I need her." Would kinda give off the impression that YOU'RE with her... unless I'm missing something.

It doesn't seem like a very flattering way to describe someone anymore, does it? Seems like giving away information that's no one's business but hers and the person she's with. It implies that she needs a qualifier (a man) in addition to two things about her which are already wonderful. Not that mentioning someone's relationship status is wrong at all, but there's a time and a place. That would be like, "I think I'm good for this job because I show up on time, I'm responsible, and I have a boyfriend."

You're right, we wouldn't. And that's where the problem lies in the translation of this excerpt.

In the Reunion Files, the English translation of the opening of that excerpt currently being discussed is: "There are many dimensions to Tifa's character", which could make it sound as though they are talking about her personality. And that's probably why so many people think the sentence that follows is also a description of her personality, so they could think of "sweetheart/lover" in the "I'm a lover, not a fighter" kind of way.

But in the Japanese text, the original line used the word "tachiba" meaning "standpoint, position, situation" (something like "Tifa holds many standpoints/positions"). "Tachiba" changes the entire context of the passage. Here, it's not about her personality. Rather it's a statement of the role she plays in her society, her position in relation to the people around her. She is like a mother because she IS functioning like one to Marlene and to Denzel and even to Cloud in some of the ways she takes care of him. She is a lover because she and Cloud have come to an understanding about their mutual feelings during the game, they have acted on it, they have been living together as a couple and are building a family life together with the two kids (ie., she is Cloud's sweetheart). She is an ally because she fights alongside Cloud, and Avalanche, and even Shinra and the Turks. In this regard, "I'm a lover, not a fighter" would not fit.

One wouldn't think a simple difference between 'job' and 'facet/dimension' would be lost on any translator who had the business of being involved. Look: even the words 'standpoint' and 'position' can mean two different things. 'Standpoint' implies that someone falls on a side of an issue, or talks of physical positioning (as opposed to mental). 'Position' can mean the same, but can also refer to a job or rank.

Even in the sense of physical positioning, it can be seen where the translators might mistake the word for 'dimension', but it is clearly not used for physical positioning. I don't see why a Japanese to English translator who had a word in front of him which clearly implied 'situation' wouldn't just write 'Tifa does many things'.

I would think the word that makes the most difference is not 'taichiba', but the 'to' in "to Tifa's character". What is the full sentence in Japanese, roughly translated to English? Is it describing many things which fall under Tifa's control, or is it implying that there are many things she does? If the Japanese said that there were many things which Tifa was involved in, then those would be jobs. But if it said there are many ways that Tifa is, not as in function but as in persuasion, those would be facets of her character, regardless of to whom they are tied.

Also, is the term 'character' used as a static object, or is it used as characterization?

Is 'koibito' (the new word itself) a noun, or tied to a being verb? 'As' is a being verb; 'like' is not. I know here that 'like' is only linked to 'mother', but it does help with understanding how transitive it is in the Japanese language. And it helps with the understanding of the word koibito.

In English too, 'lover' did not always mean people who 'made love', but could be used to mean two people who were in love.

It seems more likely to me that the phrase 'is like' means 'acts as'. In English, the word 'like' is transitive; we wouldn't say, "she is like a mother, like a lover and like an ally." And because Tifa is clearly not 'like' an ally, this can't be the case. The Japanese 'like' cannot be transitive here (which we both knew). But she does act as all three of those things, and she will continue to act like all of those things even as the relationships around her change.

In the movie, she does act like a lover. Does Cloud? No. Even if they both bear the title 'koibito' in relation to each other, (like boyfriend or girlfriend, wife or husband), that does not mean that both are acting accordingly. They are tied together. I'm saying they're tied poorly and barely holding together something that's doomed to fail unless Cloud gets his act together. Tifa would be the faithful, Cloud would be the... well, not.

Unless the Japanese 'like a mother' translates into 'an almost-mother', it should be noted that 'as' is a mime, whereas 'like' has a nasty implication of 'almost, but not quite'. 'As' denotes similarities, while 'like' shows a comparison—but not without clarifying that they are not in fact the same thing (otherwise it would have simply said, 'mother').

Remember, her first profile said that she had strong feelings for Cloud which she would never admit. But she did, didn't she? A present statement about one's status in others' lives isn't a life sentence. She wasn't always Cloud's lover, and she wasn't always Denzel's care-giver. Nothing says she will continue to be in the future, either.

These things still seem to me to be who she is. A bartender is what she does—and is that important information in a characterization? No, not really, unless the story hinges on it. I do think that if it was meant to be (mean in the sense) 'has a lover' or 'is in a lover's relationship', they would have said 'is Cloud's lover'. Maybe not; maybe that should be apparent. But mother, lover and ally are things she does which speak for her character. Bartender is not. Being like a mother and being an ally (which implies action also), speak for someone's personality. Being a lover doesn't, if it's used in the same sense of being as Tifa's being a bartender.

If it's used in the sense of 'this is what she presently does', then of course it is subject to change.

If Cloud and Tifa have a close physical relationship, why did he know he had Geostigma before she did? Why didn't they find out at the same time? Why did he leave without even telling her why or returning her calls, and why did she not seem fazed in the least by this?

Tifa also refers to them as not a real family. This isn't directed at the kids; while the conversation talks about how it affects them indirectly, it's about Cloud and Tifa not fighting together, about why they're not working and what's getting in the way. Also, in the beginning when she's with Marlene, Tifa predicts that Cloud will not fight. He doesn't work this out with her, either. He listens to Aeris and to Vincent, and Tifa is surprised but happy when he returns ready to fight.

I don't know of any source that says Cloud moved in with Tifa right after the game, but the only difference that would make to me is if it proved a good basis for a mistake. Time doesn't always make a difference in a relationship where two people rush in. Not if one of them is always gone and they don't grow together. Reeve's mention of Cloud's business in Advent Children seemed like he had just heard of the business's recent growth. "How do you stay in business?" is a reference to the fact that he never picks up his phone. So everyone who knows Cloud and Tifa knows that he's being a flake.

From what I've found out, "koibito" means 'girlfriend,' 'boyfriend', or 'partner' (romantic). It doesn't mean good relationship. "aijin" means 'lover', and it implies something outside of marriage or forbidden.

Their meeting beneath the Highwind began with the admission that neither of them had anywhere to go. Their confessions were vague—the implication was that it was understood. I don't believe it passed without a mention of Aeris (I should go check though, to be sure), and I seem to remember Tifa having to redirect Cloud's attention once or twice.

That said, even though Cloud and Tifa are together, that says nothing about their satisfaction. In fact, the directors did a very good job of making them both seem unhappy. They remind me of a lot of people. She's fighting for it more than he is because she wants it to work badly, and he depends on it. Who else is going to tell him what his next step is? Maybe a random villager, or Vincent will pop out from behind a tree. They both most likely had different ideas of what was going to happen next. Surprise!

But I think I said this somewhere before—Cloud didn't get his act together the first time and slipped back into his good-for-nothing phase. Who's to say it will stick this time?

I don't know how many in here are arguing what's in the Compilation or arguing the likelihood of things post-Compilation. I just figure fanfiction is more concerned with what didn't happen on-screen than what did.

Everyone knows who I like together anyway.

But what does Veld/Vincent have to do with Cloud/Tifa?

I don’t know if you’re working from the perspective they are lovers or Tifa is attempting to be one in AC they seem pretty happy during the conversation with Vincent in Dirge, then in the ending when Tifa mentions Cloud she doesn’t seem displeased with him so they seem to have worked out whatever was wrong doing the course of AC and in the least ended as friends. So I'm not sure how you can say their doomed.

Though I’m not sure how you can say Cloud’s dependent on his relationship with Tifa since he left her without any plans on coming back, trying to be the noble type because when he leaves he’s trying to be comforting, then doesn’t answer any of her calls, and gets over his issue with the aid of all his friends, and goes out of his way not to be a burden. Most of the relationship of the nature your implying I’ve seen usual have some stringing along involved, usual lots of stringing and subtle threats. But I’m a Cloud fangirl so my perspective is going to be different.

Aeris wasn’t mentioned during the Highwind scene at all which I’ve assumed you’ve already checked out and more importantly she wasn’t mentioned during the Lifestream which was probably the most important turning point for them as individuals. Though she was mentioned after the Highwind scene and the scene is self is pretty vague. Also, it’s being a risqué scene is kind of freaky to think about if the rest of the party was watching.

I end up losing my argument here as I enjoyed Cloud and Tifa’s interaction in the canon but I do prefer them as a non-canon couple though they are my one of my OTP’s. Sorry for the interruption.

One wouldn't think a simple difference between 'job' and 'facet/dimension' would be lost on any translator who had the business of being involved.

One normally wouldn't. Yet it's Sony, the same guys who translated "copy" as "clone" in the original game and let people think that Cloud had never been born but was cultured in a test tube. The same people who translated "Aeris no omoi" (Aeris' wish) as "Aeris' memory" and made people think that Cloud was talking about letting go of thoughts of Aeris instead of saying that they were to fight Sephiroth to free Aeris' final wish of summoning Holy to save the planet. The same people who also later somehow translated Nomura's very general "the spirit of the dead go on in the living" to a more specific "Aeris' spirit lives on in Cloud".

EDIT: For serious, what kind of convoluted mental gymnastics does one have to put oneself through in order to translate something as mundane and simple as Tifa's "slightly stretched panties" into "orthopedic underwear"?

Look: even the words 'standpoint' and 'position' can mean two different things. 'Standpoint' implies that someone falls on a side of an issue, or talks of physical positioning (as opposed to mental). 'Position' can mean the same, but can also refer to a job or rank.

Again, you're thinking of the word meaning and use in English, much like you're thinking of "lover". "Standpoint" or "position" are what "tachiba" translate to. The word is meant to say a social role, a position in relation to others around her, not an attitude or philosophy. As I said, Japanese is more specific.

Even in the sense of physical positioning, it can be seen where the translators might mistake the word for 'dimension', but it is clearly not used for physical positioning. I don't see why a Japanese to English translator who had a word in front of him which clearly implied 'situation' wouldn't just write 'Tifa does many things'.

Why they translated it like that, I don't know. I do know, however, that since they have the original Japanese text there, the translation is either wrong or put so loosely that people can get the wrong idea of what had been said.

I would think the word that makes the most difference is not 'taichiba', but the 'to' in "to Tifa's character". What is the full sentence in Japanese, roughly translated to English? Is it describing many things which fall under Tifa's control, or is it implying that there are many things she does?

Roughly: "Tifa holds many positions. (She) is like a mother, is a lover, is also an ally who fights together/comrade-in-arms."

Also, is the term 'character' used as a static object, or is it used as characterization?

There was no word for "character" used in the original Japanese text.

Is 'koibito' (the new word itself) a noun, or tied to a being verb? 'As' is a being verb; 'like' is not. I know here that 'like' is only linked to 'mother', but it does help with understanding how transitive it is in the Japanese language. And it helps with the understanding of the word koibito.

It's not difficult to understand "koibito". It only has one meaning, that of one who is in a romantic relationship. Lover, sweetheart, boyfriend/girlfriend, significant other are some of the ways I've seen "koibito" translated to. It's not a word you can use to describe a someone's personality or behaviour.

In English too, 'lover' did not always mean people who 'made love', but could be used to mean two people who were in love.

Again, you are confusing the very specific Japanese word with the more flexible English word.

It seems more likely to me that the phrase 'is like' means 'acts as'. In English, the word 'like' is transitive; we wouldn't say, "she is like a mother, like a lover and like an ally."

Yes, we wouldn't in English. But we have to in Japanese as that's how Japanese works.

What was said in Japanese is: "like a mother, is a lover, is an ally". But what was translated into English was the equivalent of "like a mother, like a lover, like an ally." And that's where (among other places) the English translation gets it wrong.

In the movie, she does act like a lover. Does Cloud? No. Even if they both bear the title 'koibito' in relation to each other, (like boyfriend or girlfriend, wife or husband), that does not mean that both are acting accordingly. They are tied together. I'm saying they're tied poorly and barely holding together something that's doomed to fail unless Cloud gets his act together. Tifa would be the faithful, Cloud would be the... well, not.

Firstly, this is a sentence about Tifa, not Cloud. It's in the Tifa section, not Cloud's.

Secondly, the movie shows Cloud while he is in a major slump. He's spent most of the two years with Tifa, but was slowly coming under the weight of his guilt and his reawakening fear of failure. He is, to put it somewhat mildly, depressed and more concerned with self-pity that he is with functioning as he normally would as Tifa's sweetheart (as shown in the beginning of Case of Tifa). So, no, in the movie, he would not act like a normal lover would. But then, everywhere you look, a lover who is in a depression would not act like a normal lover would.

Thirdly, Cloud does get his act together in the second half of the movie. He resolves to fight on, he acknowledges that Tifa and the others were right in their criticisms of him earlier, he (literally) takes down his demons, he embraces his chance to be with the people he cares about and who care about him. He returns Tifa's smile shyly, and he returns to his normal life with his family.

EDIT: Also, the creators remark that Cloud, during this low period, was running away from the things that made him happy. Being with Tifa and the kids made him happy. But, by then, he had allowed himself to get to the point where he felt he was so pathetic that he didn't deserve a shred of happiness, so he isolated himself from everyone. Once he got through this mental block, he went straight back to his family and his friends. This essentially says that Cloud's self imposed isolation is rare. It is not how he usually behaves, but is only due to exceptional circumstances.

Remember, her first profile said that she had strong feelings for Cloud which she would never admit. But she did, didn't she? A present statement about one's status in others' lives isn't a life sentence. She wasn't always Cloud's lover, and she wasn't always Denzel's care-giver. Nothing says she will continue to be in the future, either.

Her profile in the game? I agree, the profile is true for the beginning of the game/movie/whatever, but obviously, time goes on and characters undergo changes as they develop. But then, why are you so concerned with what's going to happen far into the future? Cloud may die in a freak accident involving Fenrir and a herd of wild chocobos tomorrow. Cid might suddenly find that he's got lung cancer within the hour. 5 years later, Reno might find religion and quit the Turks to become a missionary in Costa Del Sol. Anything can happen in the future, but what we know is what happened in the past and is happening in the present.

These things still seem to me to be who she is. A bartender is what she does—and is that important information in a characterization? No, not really, unless the story hinges on it.

The story and her role (in the movie) hinges on her relationship with her family (the kids and Cloud) and her friends (Avalanche). So why would they need to put in "is a bartender"?

I do think that if it was meant to be (mean in the sense) 'has a lover' or 'is in a lover's relationship', they would have said 'is Cloud's lover'. Maybe not; maybe that should be apparent.

As I wrote above in my second reply, there's only one person in the whole FFVII world who could possibly be Tifa's lover. The creators themselves said that they'd rather not come out and blatantly say something that the audiences should be able to deduce is there, subtly but surely, on screen.

But mother, lover and ally are things she does which speak for her character. Bartender is not. Being like a mother and being an ally (which implies action also), speak for someone's personality. Being a lover doesn't, if it's used in the same sense of being as Tifa's being a bartender.

How is "ally" a personality or character trait?

If it's used in the sense of 'this is what she presently does', then of course it is subject to change.

That is what "tachiba" does to the passage. It essentially says "This is what she does", and the following lists out what she does "she's like a mother to two non-related kids in her care, she is a lover to the man she lives with, she is an ally to her comrades-in-arms."

If Cloud and Tifa have a close physical relationship, why did he know he had Geostigma before she did? Why didn't they find out at the same time? Why did he leave without even telling her why or returning her calls, and why did she not seem fazed in the least by this?

Read "Case of Tifa". The novella shows what went on during the two years before AC began.

Cloud spent most of the two years happy and building up his life with his family. Slowly, during his hours on the road working as a delivery boy and passing through familiar places, his memories of his failures (especially the more spectacular ones involving Zack and Aeris) start to worry at his mind. He gradually convinces himself that he is a failure who doesn't deserve happiness. That's when he begins to slowly withdraw from the whole family. He starts to get better near the end of the novella, but then he discovers that he got Geostigma, and he promptly leaves because he feels that his failure is now complete.

(Also, please note the timeline of the Compilation in the Compilation Ultimania. The events in AC took about a couple of days, and "Case of Tifa" ended only about another couple of days before the movie started. So Cloud was absent from the Seventh Heaven for a few days at most. His total absence from the family wasn't a chronic thing.)

Tifa also refers to them as not a real family. This isn't directed at the kids; while the conversation talks about how it affects them indirectly, it's about Cloud and Tifa not fighting together, about why they're not working and what's getting in the way.

It's because Cloud was withdrawing that she said that "not a real family" bit. She was hurt that he didn't want to try and put in some effort to fight the illness, that he was purposely isolating himself from everyone because he's managed to convince himself that he's useless in spite of everyone trying to tell him that he's not. She's angry and frustrated that even after all they've been through and after all he's seen happening in front of him, he's still prioritising his self-pity over the children's safety and well-being. Yes, some may think of it as harsh, but the kids are in danger, the remanants are a real threat to everyone, and they can't afford to take it easy just for him to finally think, "you know, maybe I'm not a useless failure". They had to do something quickly, and Cloud was the only one who had the ability to accomplish it. (If only he could muster the will to do it.)

Also, in the beginning when she's with Marlene, Tifa predicts that Cloud will not fight. He doesn't work this out with her, either. He listens to Aeris and to Vincent, and Tifa is surprised but happy when he returns ready to fight.

EDIT: Seeing the bandages in the church was the key piece in her figuring out why Cloud left and why he's keeping away. Tifa says that he will not fight because she instantly understood what's going on in his head. And she was right: his old fears of failure made him slowly withdraw within himself during "Case of Tifa", his Geostigma (and therefore, his complete failure at even living his new life with his new family) at the end of "Case of Tifa" and during AC is what broke him completely and took away his will to act. Cloud needed to believe in himself again before he would even try to fight.

Aeris and Vincent say the same things Tifa and Marlene did to him. They all worked to convince him. In the end, it was all up to Cloud.

I don't know of any source that says Cloud moved in with Tifa right after the game,

Read "Case of Tifa". They have a scene that takes place just hours after the game ends, and it's there that Cloud says that he is going to be with Tifa.

From what I've found out, "koibito" means 'girlfriend,' 'boyfriend', or 'partner' (romantic). It doesn't mean good relationship.

No. We get that from seeing how they are together in the whole of their story together. We don't take one isolated snippet of a few days out of a total period of several years and say "this is a bad relationship".

Their meeting beneath the Highwind began with the admission that neither of them had anywhere to go. Their confessions were vague—the implication was that it was understood. I don't believe it passed without a mention of Aeris (I should go check though, to be sure), and I seem to remember Tifa having to redirect Cloud's attention once or twice.

They talked about having no one else to go to but to each other. They affirmed that they heard each other's voices in the Lifestream. They showed their feelings for one another without using words. They woke up next to each other in the morning. And soon after they are teased about being watched by Cid and the others during the night.

That said, even though Cloud and Tifa are together, that says nothing about their satisfaction. In fact, the directors did a very good job of making them both seem unhappy.

Their unhappiness is the exception, not the rule.

But I think I said this somewhere before—Cloud didn't get his act together the first time and slipped back into his good-for-nothing phase. Who's to say it will stick this time?

If he doesn't stick to it, then he's an idiot, plain and simple :)

Really, he went through two world crises and emerged from both a hero, he stopped the maniacal god-wannabe at least twice, he's had his dead friends come out especially to see him and wish him well, and he's got the girl he'd been gunning for since he was a child. WTF more would he want to reassure him?

And I wasn't talking about the Veld/Vincent pairing. I meant Vincent/Tifa. Vineld comprises about three of my thirty-something stories. XD

There's not a whole lot about Cloud and Tifa in Dirge, but I was mostly talking about the relationship displayed in Advent Children. When I went into specifics, I was saying that the relationship was doomed as it is—if Cloud didn't get his act together. Which I do know he did; and they could stay together if he keeps it together, sure. I don't know what you mean by subtle threats; all I mean is that there are many people who never grow alongside each other but keep slipping back into roles. Cloud seems to me to always need someone to tell him what his next step is. He doesn't even know himself; I don't know how well Tifa can know him aside from what she's seen in the Lifestream. We know she became an eyewitness. But what's going on in his head, day to day, and in his heart—the end of Advent Children is really just the beginning for them.

The line 'Cloud is Cloud' is said with a bit of fondness in the movie; and she doesn't say it at the end of Dirge, but the attitude conveyed is just so remarkably like what I've seen time and time again in other people I know that it's scary. It could go either way—sometimes it's a term of endearment, and sometimes it's justification that helps us let go—but often it's said with a hint of underlying sadness. I hear 'He's just like his father,' and 'Boys will be boys' and 'This is what you'll have to deal with' so many times from women who are clearly hurting that it makes me want to shake them. I know I'm blowing that out of proportion, but no one really adopts a phrase like that unless they've thought it over many times and in many ways. And that's reality for some people. It's the mark of a society that allows its men to get away with appalling behavior like it's just part of their gender.

Cloud's trying not to be a burden to me seemed more selfish than anything. The entire game, and in Advent Children, he looked at everything (until the very end) from the perspective of, "This is so hard for me, I can't do anything here until I receive my forgiveness and everyone else has to wait, I'm damaged and no-good, someone please tell me how to fix myself."

But my questions about the translation are mostly curiosity. I don't really mind if Cloud and Tifa are canon in-game or in-movie. I just think that they're as likely to fall apart as they are to stay together. She doesn't really share much more with him besides the kids than she does with anyone else as far as what they've weathered together. He's put her through a lot. But... it seemed to me that every time he let her down through it all, she wasn't surprised. She's patient, forgiving, sure.

Cloud isn't just undergoing exceptional circumstances, though. They're all exceptional people. He acted this way through a lot of the game. He acted this way in the movie. Chances are that the next time he's depressed, he'll shut himself off again. He just doesn't seem to deal with his issues in a normal, functional way. At least, I haven't seen him do that yet. Sure, maybe now he will. But I think he's just as likely to become one of those husbands who has his own room away from the wife. And she'll put up with it, but she won't be happy.

I hadn't heard of all of those translation errors, but I try to take everything I know to be translated in stride and look for a general sense of the point, because not all languages have the same options when choosing words for a similar concept.

Ah, what I was asking about 'koibito' wasn't the definition, but whether it implied a specific action. Just like 'love' can be an action (not just consummation, but 'so-and-so did this because she loved him') and a noun ('our love'). I know it refers to a partner, but I wanted to know whether it referred to a person who had made a commitment (title), or someone who had love in their life. Whether there was more emphasis implied by the word on title or what the title implies.

Well, I am more concerned with what happens in the future. The present is already written for us. Cloud/Tifa is present, sure—but it's not a guarantee down the road. And it's not something I've found so appealing that I'd want to keep them together in my own stories. It's downright depressing. It reminds me of a bad copy that just scratches the surface but never really gets down deep enough to satisfy.

In short, Cloud/Tifa isn't something I'm sweet on. Granted, I think Cloud/Aeris has no chance at all. But I think both Cloud and Tifa could be happier with other people while maintaining their friendship. There's too much between them that isn't open for discussion; even when they get down to serious business, they don't lay everything out there. They both keep their innermost voices hidden and don't say what they're thinking. They have to wait until the other person has finally had enough and calls for an extreme chat (which doesn't solve the problem), or their attention is drawn to the same impending crisis that might just kill everyone.

But I wouldn't worry about their teammates having caught a nasty peek. They supposedly had a whole night to go and see who they needed to see. Assuming everyone didn't turn back and head onto the ship after five minutes, I'd say all they caught was the afterglow. I mean, if someone told me they loved me and it took them six hours, I'd be a little upset. Ha.

People having dependences on relationships usual have certain connotations in my experiences. Sorry to have misunderstood.

While the not wanting to be a burden element was I’d say more proud than selfish not that it isn’t a type of selfishness Cloud wasn’t expecting other people to fix him it’s more like those stories you hear about in the depression where the man leave their homes because they can’t find work and don’t want their family burdened with another mouth to feel. Even though I thought the scene with him at Zack’s grave implied he was planning on working it out then clones happened.

We get to see little of Cloud outside of extraordinary circumstances. I’d say Cloud attempting to rescue Tifa was one of them and there I would say it’s a bit much to say Cloud was expecting Aeris to solve the problem. Cloud leaving Nibelheim, while he was running in one way, he was trying to solve the problem. Post the Lifestream Cloud was the most together out of all of them and that’s when his life was less exceptional. Running is how Cloud solves problems for the most part. The only exception I can think of is in the North Crater and that was not a usual occurrence for Cloud. So I’m not sure how you can come to your conclusions on his behaviors.

I think what separates Cloud from the rest of the group is there is mutual attraction, their also both sort close quarters fighters, they both seem to have a fondness for pianos and they both look stunning in dresses other than that the rest of the team all has a shared past trauma, hatred of Shinra, love issues, keeping their problems hidden so they don’t have to deal with them and the such. They also don’t have outside factors the others do like Cid with Shera and his dream, Yuffie with her father and country, Vincent and everything, Barret and his guilt, Nanaki with his guardianship, it’s just the two of them so with the mutual attraction it does make things much easier. It’s not like we know anything about their personal lives with the exception of the piano and their fighting styles, not that it’s much to base anything off of.

The only way it would work long term, instead of Cloud leaving one day, is if Cloud continues as he is and Tifa continues stepping up herself, since the dysfunctional is on both sides. Mainly the reason I don’t read much Cloud/Tifa.

I agree with them maybe working maybe not.

Again, when you consider that Cloud can make it from Edge to the Northern Continent (on bike?) before the night is through... I'm thinking their planet is very small in comparison to ours. Every one of their friends made it to the final battle in Advent Children on very short notice. And Vincent we know at least had to travel as far as Cloud did.

Just because I think Cloud/Aeris has nil present potential (because she's dead) doesn't mean I don't count her as one of those 'outside factors' that got in the way for a while and left lasting marks on both Cloud and Tifa, for better or worse.

But even though the creators say that Cloud was running from the things that made him happy, that doesn't mean that he acknowledged that as he was running. We might say someone is forgetting who their real friends are, or leaving behind what's really important, but when they do that they're not usually doing it thinking that they're giving up something important. They're too busy with the distraction at hand which has screwed up their priorities. Cloud's reasoning is clearly out of order during the movie, because there are physical obstacles that won't wait on his being ready to handle them. But I don't want anyone to substitute the fact that Cloud was running from what made him happy (naturally) with this unconfirmed and reasonably doubtable feeling that he had when he ran (the idea that his mind was constantly on his family and that he did it purely for selfless reasons).

When Aeris asks Cloud what he's wanting, he says 'forgiveness, more than anything'. Not that his relationship with Tifa wouldn't suffer, not even that his geostigma would go away. Cloud wants his clear conscience.

I've been really slacking on my feeds and keeping up with everyone aside from what appears in my inbox. It's nice to see you. :)

Darknightdestiny:

My point about it not sticking with Cloud was that... one should have expected everything he went through the first time to do it for him. And yes, I think that makes him—oblivious, perhaps not an idiot.

You're not alone. I myself was a bit put off by AC originally because I saw it as Cloud going through the same crisis as before. The only thing that somewhat excuses it is that, before the movie, Cloud never really got a resolution to the matter of his actions or inactions that led to the deaths of two dear friends.

I wouldn't call him 'oblivious' as that words commonly implies a lack of knowledge or awareness. The end of AC has Cloud specifically acknowledging that he wouldn't be acting that way again ("I'm not alone," and all that), so if he does go back to that kind of behaviour, then not only is it a repeat of something he's gone through twice before, it's also deliberately ignoring the fact that the issue had already been settled in the movie. It would be a regression that's even worse than what happened for/in AC. I would label that kind of Cloud an idiot.

That is the one thing I've found that seriously hampers my enjoyment of reading quite a few fics that take place post AC: A good number of fanfic writers seem to keep writing Cloud as that still-angsty guy who seemed to have forgotten the lessons he's learnt by the end of the movie.

Cloud seems to me to always need someone to tell him what his next step is. He doesn't even know himself;

Personally, I think he's more together than you give him credit for. Look at him when he was a teen; he knew he what he wanted, he felt he knew what he lacked in order to get what he wanted, he schemed up a way that he could better himself, and then went to put his plans into action. He seems quite goal oriented and very critical of himself.

He was in need of a little reassurance in some parts of "Case of Tifa". Him needing reassurance from Tifa that it was okay for him to get Fenrir, for instance. But he seemed to have gained a bit more confidence as the novella went on, faltered as he started having his personal crisis, lost it completely when he found out he was dying, and then regained it after he'd finally made the decision to stand up and fight in AC.

I don't know how well Tifa can know him aside from what she's seen in the Lifestream. We know she became an eyewitness. But what's going on in his head, day to day, and in his heart—the end of Advent Children is really just the beginning for them.

She's been said by the creators to be the one who knows him best and she seems to be able to figure out most of what's going on in his head whether or not he tells her. And even if she doesn't figure it out straight away, what I've seen so far indicates to me that she and Cloud are willing to work at it.

Cloud's trying not to be a burden to me seemed more selfish than anything. The entire game, and in Advent Children, he looked at everything (until the very end) from the perspective of, "This is so hard for me, I can't do anything here until I receive my forgiveness and everyone else has to wait, I'm damaged and no-good, someone please tell me how to fix myself."

He was like that for two relatively short periods of time and both times involved having his foundations knocked down, such as when he was still trying to figure out who he was in Disk 1 and early Disk 2 of the game, and in the first half of AC when he was faced with the prospect of a failure's death. The rest of the time, he actually seems pretty collected and chipper, and does what he has to do without complaint, without whining, and without requiring someone to hold his hand. From my read of him throughout the compilation, his normal method of not being a burden is by pulling his own weight.

Chances are that the next time he's depressed, he'll shut himself off again.

There's always the possibility that the creators would write him in a situation where he's shown to leave like that again, but generally I see Cloud as someone who doesn't forget the important things in life so easily. In AC, he's learnt that he's not alone, so I take that as as indication that he's not going to shut people out of his life anymore.

Ah, what I was asking about 'koibito' wasn't the definition, but whether it implied a specific action. Just like 'love' can be an action (not just consummation, but 'so-and-so did this because she loved him') and a noun ('our love').

I'm not sure what to say about specific actions. So far as I know, the only implication in "koibito" is that the lover we're referring to is in a mutually romantic relationship with his/her lover.

avalon-chan:

There’s no way any of them could have actual gone anywhere and been back the next day with the transport system.

I agree, and I think they were away for longer than a day. At the start of the scene on board the Highwind, right before everyone leaves to be with their loved ones, Red mentions that they had seven more days left until Meteor arrived. So they went their separate ways, came back, headed to the Northern Crater, then fought and defeated Sephiroth just in time for Meteor to show up. If we assumed that they made straight to the Northern Crater after they reassembled on the Highwind, then it seems like they were gone for more than one day.

"I'm not alone, not anymore" just seems to me to be an affirmation of what he already knew—he was never alone, only when he removed himself from others. But his joining ShinRa was to impress Tifa. His promise was for Tifa. Tifa is his reassurance from day to day, and I don't think he's okay with being alone. That's what I mean by dependence. He doesn't seem to know who he is without her. His whole military life was built on making something out of himself because he thought he was invisible to her when she was with her other friends. He's never felt good enough, and he constantly needs something else to give him his worth.

I'm sorry, but for me, Square will never be able to take the emo out of Cloud. You can't separate a chemical from water once its gone and poisoned everything.

As for the transportation, I have no idea. Vincent and Yuffie were supposedly out of the crater and back in Midgar helping people evacuate between the time it took for Sephiroth to be defeated (they're in the shots at the beginning of Advent Children, fighting with the others) and the time it took for Meteor to hit (it's burning in the sky at the beginning of Dirge). I had thought the seven days implied that it would take a while to get from the edge of the crater to Sephiroth, perhaps a couple days. Of course this doesn't throw the idea that the others were gone for a while completely out the window, but it does make me think that on their planet the trip is possible in one day.

Ah, I see. I thought that you were calling him oblivious if he were to leave for the hypothetical third time.

Depression causes inaction, but inaction doesn't help depression. 'Pulling his own weight' doesn't mean anything to me, because he didn't do anything but remove himself. He became self-reliant, wasn't dead weight—but he wasn't helping the people who needed it.

I meant that under normal circumstances, when he wasn't in such a poor state, he pulled his own weight without requiring someone to tell him what to do. For instance, he started out by helping Tifa out, going out to hunt for ingredients for her, then shifted it into a package delivery business for others. Even during the latter half of the game, he was actively helping others without being asked (like when he cracks jokes and does squats to distract Yuffie from her motion sickness).

"I'm not alone, not anymore" just seems to me to be an affirmation of what he already knew—he was never alone, only when he removed himself from others.

The "not anymore" part is another translation thing. It's not in the original line.

I'm sorry, but for me, Square will never be able to take the emo out of Cloud. You can't separate a chemical from water once its gone and poisoned everything.

I don't see Cloud as happy-go-lucky, but he's not emo to me, either, as he doesn't brood or angst about in general. I think he's rather well balanced, attitude-wise.

I had thought the seven days implied that it would take a while to get from the edge of the crater to Sephiroth, perhaps a couple days. Of course this doesn't throw the idea that the others were gone for a while completely out the window, but it does make me think that on their planet the trip is possible in one day.

Throw in chocobo breeding and racing, that throws the timeline off even more...

Cloud does do his own part when it seems safe to do so—when life is secure and he's not plagued with questions. When everyone's together as a team, or when he feels like he can give something back (like helping Tifa), then he's helping towards a common goal. But I'd say that when Tifa's business became tied up in his and Denzel got sick and Cloud suddenly disappeared, that's when they needed him the most and he wasn't there. I don't think his being sick is a good enough excuse, unless he actually crawled in a hole to die. But no, he's still out there, riding around and delivering packages, but avoiding those who need him presently at home because he's got issues of self-worth with the only people who actually know him, to whom he'll always be worth something.

Whether 'not anymore' was in the original line or not, it still stands to me (even moreso) that Cloud is just stating something that was true all along. A Light in August, if you will.

And chocobo breeding, yes! Seriously. I never did any of that because it seemed like an unnecessary waste of time (big deal, I can retrieve materia I don't even need). But apparently they have aerial jet-bikes, too! Or whatever Yuffie's driving in the beginning of Dirge...

EDIT: Okay, I scrolled up and caught a whole bunch of stuff that I apparently didn't catch the first time I was going through your posts. In short, I did read Case of Tifa a long time ago (in whole or in part I do not recall), but did not remember how shortly it ended in relation to the beginning of Advent Children. However, that still doesn't change my view of their relationship as a whole; neither does Cloud's rash decision to move in with Tifa immediately. In fact it reinforces my thoughts that she got more than she bargained for. I can think of many ways that Cloud could have better handled the situation, and gotten much further along with his family for it. And I wasn't pointing to Tifa's saying 'not a real family' as her rebuffing Cloud; I know she said it because of the way he was acting. Again, I think this is evidence for his self-absorption.

I do have a question, however, for those who are familiar with the translations. Since Tifa says things in the English like, "He's not here anymore," and speaks to him as though she's missed him for a while, is that due to error? If he's only been gone for a few days and even this is unusually long for him, one has to assume that he never goes on delivery routes which last for more than a day or two. But he must do business outside of Edge, because the credits and the revisited sketch lead us to believe so.

To my thinking, he didn't get an outright resolution in the game, so he was oblivious the second time. He did get a full resolution in the end of the movie, so he'd be an idiot the third time :)

Cloud does do his own part when it seems safe to do so—when life is secure and he's not plagued with questions. When everyone's together as a team, or when he feels like he can give something back (like helping Tifa), then he's helping towards a common goal. But I'd say that when Tifa's business became tied up in his and Denzel got sick and Cloud suddenly disappeared, that's when they needed him the most and he wasn't there. I don't think his being sick is a good enough excuse, unless he actually crawled in a hole to die.

He was still doing his part during "Case of Tifa" where he was beginning his slide into his funky failure mode. He wasn't being too effective at it, but he was still trying, and he was just starting to turn himself around for the better when he got hit with Geostigma.

And 'crawling into a hole to die' was pretty much what he was doing when he left the Seventh Heaven to go to the church.

But no, he's still out there, riding around and delivering packages, but avoiding those who need him presently at home because he's got issues of self-worth with the only people who actually know him, to whom he'll always be worth something.

He was gone for only a few days in total (including those two days spent in AC), and from the look of things, most of his time alone was spent dwelling on failures, bemoaning his fate (if he'd dragged his feet any more, he'd have been digging trenches wherever he walked), and visiting Zack's grave to dwell some more on his failures. I don't think he was even trying to deliver packages.

Not that I'm saying that it was okay for him to disappear since he was gone for 'only' a few days, as I do agree with you: people needed him and he was too wrapped up in himself; self-absorbed, as you said in your edit. But a person in his situation does do that sort of hurtful thing, even if they don't mean to be hurtful.

I am still of the opinion that Cloud's got a lot of apologising and making up to do. I wish they'd shown that.

Whether 'not anymore' was in the original line or not, it still stands to me (even moreso) that Cloud is just stating something that was true all along. A Light in August, if you will.

I understand what you mean. Personally, I think he knew all along that he had never been alone, but the change here is his own attitude towards that knowledge. Before AC and during its first half, he made himself alone because he felt he didn't deserve to be with them. His statement at the end of AC was, I feel, him saying that he's accepting that he does have people who care for him and that he's not going to shut himself away from them again.

And chocobo breeding, yes! Seriously. I never did any of that because it seemed like an unnecessary waste of time (big deal, I can retrieve materia I don't even need). But apparently they have aerial jet-bikes, too! Or whatever Yuffie's driving in the beginning of Dirge...

There did seem to have been a big technological breakthrough somewhere in between AC and DC.

Since Tifa says things in the English like, "He's not here anymore," and speaks to him as though she's missed him for a while, is that due to error? If he's only been gone for a few days and even this is unusually long for him, one has to assume that he never goes on delivery routes which last for more than a day or two. But he must do business outside of Edge, because the credits and the revisited sketch lead us to believe so.

She does say something like that in the Japanese line. Anyway, it's not unlikely for Cloud to have taken on delivery jobs that require him to be away from home for longer than a day or two. However, I think the main difference here is that he likely still kept in touch with the family (answering their calls, calling them up too) while he was working, whereas there was absolutely no communication with him at all during his isolation.

And because he didn't get that he had his answer all along at the end of the first game, I still call him oblivious. He's just now realized it.

The thing that catches me off-guard about his being gone only a few days is that... Tifa isn't calling around to see if he's okay, if he's hurt. She's fully aware that he's moving around; she's delivering messages for him, and like I said, she doesn't seem fazed by it. This is why I think they've drifted a great deal prior to the separation. It was like she'd known all along it was going to happen. And... the end of Case of Tifa didn't seem to me to make that clear.

But the technology I was referring to in the beginning of Dirge was during a flashback to the original game. It was something Yuffie had between Sephiroth's defeat and the impact of Meteor, when she returned to ShinRa tower with Vincent—this is at the time you see the EMS running around and taking Rufus' body away.

I disagree. The only times I've seen his trying to prove himself was when he had either fallen or was knocked down hard by issues like Sephiroth's manipulations and his guilt and failures. The rest of the time, he was just concerning himself with the usual matters of life.

And because he didn't get that he had his answer all along at the end of the first game, I still call him oblivious. He's just now realized it.

Right. And since he has realised it, he would, IMO, no longer qualify to be oblivious if he were to disappear yet again. He'd instead be promoted to idiot :)

(Unless, of course, the writers make up a new set of fears for him to start worrying about and leaving. If that were to happen, then my displeasure would be aimed solely at the writers for not even trying to find fresher ways of developing their character.)

The thing that catches me off-guard about his being gone only a few days is that... Tifa isn't calling around to see if he's okay, if he's hurt. She's fully aware that he's moving around; she's delivering messages for him, and like I said, she doesn't seem fazed by it. This is why I think they've drifted a great deal prior to the separation. It was like she'd known all along it was going to happen. And... the end of Case of Tifa didn't seem to me to make that clear.

I'm sure that his gradually worsening behaviour in the second half of CoT had something to do with her numbed or unfazed reaction we see in AC.

I haven't played DoC, I'm afraid.

EDIT: A quick question, to satisfy my curiousity. What expectations did you have about Tifa's behaviour in the beginning of AC since Cloud's absence only just took place?

I glossed over, but didn't see anything pointing out that the way Cloud's crush or love for Tifa when he was younger was described as "dim" doesn't mean it wasn't strong.

It means that it was kept secret, hidden. They describe Allen's feelings for Shion in Xenosaga the same way, don't they? It's pretty obvious that Allen has it bad for Shion. I'm not sure, but I think they also refer to Elena as having a "dim" love for Tseng.

If someone addressed this already, then sorry. I just didn't wanna let it slide by.

Finally! some other people who dslike CloTi!

This pairingis really boring and samey, just because Tifa likes Cloud everyone assumes he likes her too. Well, lifes a bitch like that and it doesn't always happen.

They're better off as friends

Uh, there are plenty of people who dislike Cloti. They're called Cleriths, and there are a ton of 'em.

Well, nobody has to assume Cloud likes Tifa, 'cuz he does. But if you don't like it, then that's cool. Someone should tell Cloud and Tifa that they're better off platonic, because it looks like they're wasting their time. ^^

I see this everywhere.

And I just have to say...

Would people really like Cloud x Aeris half as much if Aeris had died? I mean, I see all sorts of advocation for the "tragic appeal" of Cloud x Aeris, because Aeris died, but seriously, what do the two do for each other? Aeris is his guiding light- not his romantic interest. They never had great interaction, they didn't know each for very long before Aeris was killed. Cloud was upset because he felt guilty for Aeris's death, because he thought he could have saved her. (Although that's obviously not the only thing he was brooding about.) Not because he was tragically mourning his lost lover. She obviously watches over him (like in AC, saving Cloud AND the world with her Great Gospel, saving him when he got shot), but I don't see anything romantic. Even when she was rescuing him from death, Zack was there too. They're both his guardian angels. If Square Enix was trying for something more intimate where Aeris gives Cloud the kiss of life or something, they could have easily just not included Zack. It's not as if people would have run around flapping their arms and demanding to know where Zack was for the revival scene with Aeris.

In a relationship, Aeris would probably want a closer parallel to herself. I mean, she'd want someone fun and lively and joyous (and please, don't bring up Cosmo Canyon. She was having a down moment. That doesn't mean that that's what her character is like. She's more lighthearted and trusting [almost the point of naivete] than serious). Like... Zack. Cloud wouldn't be as close to the perfect guy for Aeris as Zack. Instead, Cloud would probably want somebody who could relate to his tragedies, who knew him well, who was slightly more grounded, who would understand his sometimes-moodiness, who would give him a push in the right direction if he got too lost in himself. Like... Tifa.

Or, that's how I see it.

I kinda trailed off my original question Seriously, though, what else appeals about Cloud x Aeris besides the fact that she's dead? (No, nothing personal. Over time I've grown to accept Cleris a lot more. Just... my Cloti blood begs to know.)

OH. And I meant to say- (though I know I've posted this elsewhere, I'll say it again just to be sure) Cloud x Tifa is not the bland story of a princess getting her prince. To be quite honest, that's more Cloud x Aeris. She plays damsel in distress a lot better, if you ask me, not to mention she's the healer-type, more in touch with her feminine side, and likes the color pink. Cloud wields a sword and you control him in-game (thus making him prince enough, for sure).

Maybe that's not looking at Cleris properly though, maybe a little more digging into the depths of each person's character and past is necessary, but saying Cleris is a fairytale romance for those on-the-surface reasons is the same thing you're doing to Cloti by calling it the boring princess-gets-her-prince story, just because Tifa wanted Cloud to be her hero when she was fourteen (thirteen?).

(The reason Cloud x Aeris isn't bland and a fairytale story is because it's tragic, I know. But seriously, just because Aeris died doesn't make Cloud love her. If Tifa or Yuffie or even Barret died, and in the same manner, Cloud would be grieving too. And having the same issues.)

Second, more recently, it's been revealed the CloTi relationship is, and I quote, 'dim.' Can't twist that one. Dim relationships do not shine brightly. And indeed, why should they? Between Cloud and Tifa, there is no light. Just a mutual darkness.

Where has this been revealed?

In any case, calling either Cloud or Tifa "dark" is an on-the-surface kind of assumption. Is Cloud "dark" because he spent six months in a church, thinking back on his "sins"? No, he's only got a guilt complex for letting the people he cared about (and emo Cloud does care) die. He's trying to repay for what he's done, and he's trying to hide his shame for contracting Geostigma and dying a fool's death. He wants people to find him heroic, and since he's dying of Geostigma, there's nothing heroic about that. And so he's embarrassed and he hides. I don't see darkness there.

Is Tifa "dark" because she... I don't even know what people call her emo. Tifa? She's always been optimistic. Yes, she's had her moments where she's gotten down on herself, but again, like Aeris, it's not a representation of her as a whole. She's just had bad days like everybody else where she questions her path. And if the guy you were living with left inexplicably for six months, wouldn't you be a little worried/annoyed too? Wouldn't you be a little on edge because your adopted son is dying, not to mention the rest of the world? (Referring to any assumptions about her behavior in AC that say that she's moody.) Tifa's always put other people first and tried her best to help out. I don't see darkness there either.

Yeah, uh. I couldn't resist?

- WAS

(Please, no one be offended. This is just the way I am. Clerises, I even like your pairing, to an extent :D)

Second, more recently, it's been revealed the CloTi relationship is, and I quote, 'dim.' Can't twist that one. Dim relationships do not shine brightly. And indeed, why should they? Between Cloud and Tifa, there is no light. Just a mutual darkness.

Where has this been revealed?

The 'dim' bit is from the Ultimania character profiles. It was said that Cloud 'dimly fell in love with' Tifa. However, that phrase does NOT mean 'no light', or 'mutual darkness' as some people would like to believe. Vilaeth from AC.net (one of the guys who translated that passage) has clarified that Cloud 'dimly falling in love' means that his love was hidden and secret. Vilaeth even pointed out a couple of other examples of 'dimly fell in love', like Elena's feelings for Tseng, and even Allen's feelings for Shion in Xenosaga.

As for these:

Is Cloud "dark" because he spent six months in a church, thinking back on his "sins"?

And if the guy you were living with left inexplicably for six months, wouldn't you be a little worried/annoyed too?

Cloud wasn't gone for six months. Even including the time he spent away in AC, he was absent from the Seventh Heaven for a week at the most. Obviously, his guilt took time to build up, but he didn't leave Tifa and the kids until he found out that he had Geostigma, which happened (according to the character timelines in the Ultimania) maybe a couple of days to a few days before the beginning of AC's events.

(Edited slightly for clarity.)

Hm.

xD Well, don't I feel shamed. I'm not even sure where the time of "six months" came from in my head, but that's the impression I was under. Your clarification is appreciated, though :)

I don't quite like when people hate on Tifa OR Aerith, but I'll respect your opinion.

@Keeki: No one will ever forget Aerith. They simply included that in the character sheet of DoC becasue she was once a member of AVALANCHE (a member who saved everyone's bu**s), so I don't quite consider that "prove" of their "love". Aerith wanted Cloud to move on from his guilt and to continue living and loving. She even encouraged Tifa to never give up on Cloud. I respect your opinion but I don't ever say "never" (sorry for the sap LOLZ). Cloud has a messed up mind that just started heling after Advent Children, and his feeling where never confirmed to be romantic love. Hell maybe he felt guilty after knowing he let Zack and his chick die. You never know with the dude)

It was stated in one of the letter of a worker of Square that Cloud was supposed to fall for Aerith in the first draft of the game, this caused confition to the workers. They most likely took this idea out because they didn't want Aerith to fall in the big pit of damsels in distress, and I'm glad they didn't 'cuz then the story would be filled with more clinches.

Tifa deserves to be happy. He gave her everything to make Cloud happy but he was so consumed in his self-pity over failing Zack and Aerith he never noticed her concern.

I like how they left the story open to interpretation. At least Zacky got to meet his Aerith (I personally believe they ar the real tragic couple of the story)

I doubt I'm going to win very many friends with this, but I really don't like Cloud therefore I think Tifa is too good for him. I know the opinion is totally bias and has no real bases in compatiblity, history or anything...it's just basically me saying Cloud sucks. Which he does. In fact I'm reminded of a ryhme that was around in the day but I can't cuz there may be kiddies here, lol

I don't like CloTi at all. I've played the game (a few dozen times a long time ago) and own the movie and even if they do turn out to be the canon couple, I'll just stick with fanfiction.

Personally, when I was playing the game I wasn't too fond of her. I had questions like why didn't she inform him that his memories were screwy and what kind of heroine worries more about some boy that she really didn't pay much attention to when they are suppose to be tracking a pscyho bent on world annihilation. Sometimes I agree with Leonora (especially in some fics) because I wonder why would someone who is supposedly intelligent want to shack themselves with a mental basket case like Cloud.

Then there are times when the idea of some girl placing her life on hold just for a glimpse of a guy (who she did not pay attention to when younger) sounds slightly creepy to me. You know like the crazy old lady who still wears her wedding dress waiting for her dead fiance to come back. I don't know what their relationship is like during those two years but the fact that both them and Denzel are living above the bar is kinda telling. Even if its separate rooms that still further than Aeris(th) ever got.

The movie really didn't do anything for me. I bought it, but sometimes I'm tempted to sell it for it just filled with 'boo hoo, I'm sad' Cloud and Tifa's weird understanding of everything (not to knock the girl but personally i don't have it in me). If your taking truths from the movie its a waste of time. It ruined my favorite character.

Also in reference to the use of the word "koibito" I was taught it was equilavent to says boy/girlfriend sweetheart and that 'aijin' (I know I've mispelled it) is a more personal term for a lover (its something you would call your wife/husband). But I havent been in school for years so maybe you should take it with a grain of salt.

Bleu Edit: Deleted double post

I've just got a few nitpicks with your post.

I had questions like why didn't she inform him that his memories were screwyWhat was she supposed to tell him? "Hey Cloud, you weren't in Nibelheim five years ago!"

Seriously, that's all she knew. And you know what? Cloud was in Nibelheim, Tifa just didn't know it. So what good would that have done him. Tifa didn't have the means to help Cloud at that time. The best she could think to do was keep him close and watch him.

As far as Tifa not paying attention to Cloud, it wasn't her fault. She wasn't ignoring him, in fact, even back then she thought he was cute. She liked him. Cloud's behavior back then is the reason why they didn't have more contact. He isolated himself because of his own weakness. He'd get in fights. He wasn't exactly friendly.

Sorry, didn't see the need for this post. Next time. Say something productive.

Bleu

Taken care of. Sorry for the late edit. :)

Im very bored at the moment and cant see to find inspiration for stories or videos so I thought I'd just come and stir trouble in the forums for a while. Joke :P

Actually, although I still dont like CloTi very much I would say that I can still respect where it is coming from. I guess I just dont like them because to me the whole 'childhood friend' thing is quite cliched. You see it in films and stuff where one of them is moving on and suddenly their best friend realises they love them and oh my god they love them too. Happy Ever After.

And yeah, okay. Cloud and Tifa wouldnt have an easy ride and the fact they would have to work really hard to get somewhere makes it a credible pairing no matter how much I dont like them together. That is just my opinion. Its not because I hate Tifa or Cloud or because Im blinded by love for Clerith(trust me I wouldnt be a huge fan of Cloud/Yuffie, Cloud/Yuna or Squall/Aerith otherwise right?) I just cant seem to vision them together without getting this sickening feeling inside. I guess everyone has that about one pairing though. And to be fair I hate Zack/Aerith a million times more than I have or will ever hate Cloud/Tifa.

Again, in respects to canon events and stuff I can see where CloTi is coming from but it doesnt grab my attention as much as other pairings, canon or fanon.

Well, now I've killed some time with the random revival of a forum I'm off :)

~Beeria

I don't like Cloti. Tifa is not a match for Cloud. She is too reserved, too afraid to be honest about her emotions, she gets depressed too easily... Cloud doesn't need someone like that.

That's why I'm glad that they didn't make Cloud and Tifa end up together. They wrote these characters so they know them better than anything. They know that Cloud belongs to Aerith. That's why they made him fall for her and not Tifa.

Cloud is weak. Tifa is weak. Aerith is strong. Cloud and Tifa share many of the same personality traits and have the same weakness. It doesn't work.

I'm so tired of hearing Cloti lovers go around shoving their perspective down people's throats. If you want to like a non canon couple go ahead. But leave it in the imaginary, hypothetical realm where it belongs. Cloud only liked Tifa because she was what he wanted to be: popular, well-liked, admired, and cherished. He had a silly boyhood crush because she was pretty and he wanted to impress her so everyone in the village would like him. His crush for her faded the moment his eyes met Aerith's.

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