CONTAINMENT, NOT ERADICATION."

This was posted on that topic, " How to deal with sues" This shows how samll minded people are. This is writing, not a disease. And also the last statement sounds border line to something hitler would say.

An Original Character is a character that you come up with.

Getting a Mary Sue instead of an OC is like ordering pie and getting a piece of cardboard on your plate. Sure, if all you eat is cardboard (read: all you write are Sues), it's no different. But if you're expecting delicious, delicious pie (read: if you're used to good writing), I'll bet you five dollars that you stand up and shout at the waiter. This is not what you were expecting.

Now, if the menu said that you were getting cardboard (read: you knew you were writing a Sue), you would settle down and eat your cardboard, right? But if the menu says that you're getting pie (read: you're getting a good, fleshed-out, imperfect character), then you're going to be angry. You asked for pie, not cardboard!

Translation for those unwilling to read metaphor:

If I want to read a Mary Sue (come on, we all have our guilty pleasures), I'll go looking for one (and I won't have to look far). But if I open the story wanting to read a satisfying story about a character I can sympathize with because she's imperfect and I get Ms. Preppypants who's never flunked a class and gets all the guys, too, I will not be pleased. I may, in fact, drop the author a note, as kind as I can make it. Something like: Hey, I like the way you did X, but Character seems awfully flat, here's how you might fix that.

Whomever said that (loosely paraphrased) "ZOMG some people write flames on PURPOSE", you baffle me. Yes, some of us do. It's not like I wake up in the morning just having clicked "Send" on a flame, having no idea when I wrote it. If I do flame, it takes me a goddamn while to write it, and every sentence is deliberate.

I feel quite guilty for laughing at the post above mine, because first it's funny, then it turns into me being horrified that I cannot tell if this is clever parody of Sue-lovers or they honestly think that. Aiee my brain.

Giffon's Flight makes a good point. I can sympathize when you want to read about a relatable character and get a Mary Sue. But some people can be blinded by fear/anger of Mary Sues that they just drop a story without looking too deeply at the character. Maybe this person gets a few straight A's and the guys, but maybe they're also clumsy and not too good at singing. Would that still make them a Mary Sue if they had a few flaws but not too many? And maybe this Mary Sue never gets their own POV, and the person that the story is being told from never sees flaws, and they only see the good aspects? This occurs in romance all the time, and I never see anyone complaining. If anything, Mary Sue boyfriends and girlfriends are all the rage because the lover is too blind to notice flaws. Plus if a Mary Sue isn't a main character, and only uses their Mary Sueness to help another character find themself/their good side/a lost item, does that still make them a bad thing for helping the story along?

I'm no expert, I'm not an experienced writer, but I think every OC is different and should take a proffesional to judge who is a Mary Sue and who isn't. If the character at hand is a Mary Sue, but helps the story along with their perfection and/or talent, then let them be called an OC! If the character has no reason (but every right) to be a Mary Sue, call them a Sue! Every case is different, and every writer has different opinions. Who are we to be the judges of who is and isn't a Mary Sue? Even the writer of the character can't say for sure (although their input counts for a bit). Why do we even have to judge them?

About when I said "I can't believe some people actually write flames on purpose" I meant that flames hurt writers, even if they're intended to aid, when they aren't properly phrased. I've gotten a flame, it took me weeks to get over it. It really hurt because all the person could talk about was "this is so wrong, I don't like it, Maximum Ride is supposed to be sci-fi, not magic, but I can help you." The person could only talk about how it was all wrong, and they wouldn't even tell me how to fix it, they just said they knew how to. When flames include instructions on how to get better at writing, I'll accept them with open arms. But based on past experiences, I only see the ones that hurt, and those were the flames that I was reffering to. Maybe I should have been more specific.

And about the last comment I made about the "Mary Sue holocaust" you have every right to laugh about it. I only wrote that to make light of the subject and create a parody for us to laugh about. But as I wrote it and looked deeper into what I was saying, I realized that this is only too true. People badmouth Mary Sues for no visible reason, and it's not nice to the authors who worked hard to write them. The only way Mary Sues can prosper without fear is when the author feels completely confident in them, and Sue-haters are ruining it. In a way, this IS the Mary Sue holocaust. We have Hitler, who blames bad stories on the perfect or near-perfect characters, and we have the Mary Sues themselves, who are only a portrayal of the authors insecurity and wishes for a better life. It's not their fault they have rarely any faults, but they're persecuted for it anyways. And then we have forums like this, which are like the written battlegrounds that defend or hate Mary Sues. Personally, I can't wait for the D-Day when everyone realizes that both sides are right and wrong. The Sue-haters are right because sometimes you want an imperfect, relatable character and get a Mary Sue instead, but they're also wrong because deep down some Mary Sues are only partial Sues and actually pretty good characters. Sue-lovers are right because some Sues help the story along and portray the author's insecurity and wishes, but they are also wrong because sometimes people need a relatable character to really understand the story. As I mentioned, I'm not as experienced as some of you, but that's my opinion. Both sides have every right to fight, but place yourself in the other's shoes before you critisize them.

But that's only how I see it.

A Sue is a character with absolutely no flaws. A character with flaws may court Suedom, but is not actually a Sue.

Determining a Sue is kind of like gathering up a bunch of blind men and an elephant. You've heard it; they think it's a bunch of random things thrown together in a pile. It's actually an elephant. So even if I say it's a piece of squiggly rope, it might be an elephant's tail.

Also, to retcon my last post, I'd much rather write some concrit for you than a straight flame. If your story's awful enough to prompt me into flaming... well, I'll just congratulate you on a parody well-written and tab over to kittenwar. (Note, kittens help everything. Everything.)

If this is like a Holocaust, I'd like to say it here: Sues are, if nothing else, a fantastic learning ability and a really pleasant side project. Come on. Writing a Sue for me is like saying, "Okay, no rules, go!" It's a lovely way to simply try out an idea without having to worry about fleshing out a character. Say I want to try steampunk or cyberpunk -- I'll write a horrible, terrible Sue first, so I can get my head wrapped around the universe. And then, knowing me, the Sue will come back and start redeeming herself.

I'm actually trying to do this now; writing a sort-of Sue and trying to make her sympathetic and likeable for everyone. It's HP-universe and not more than a third or so done, though. Once I'm done and it's edited, it will go up here. Just because she's completely perfect doesn't mean she has to be an object of ridicule and hate. The problem with a lot of Sues is that not only are they flat, but the writing surrounding them is flat and awkward. Sues are a good way to ease into an unfamiliar technique/universe, and a good exercise in making a character sympathetic.

Hm. Okay, challenge for anybody (no, not a setup for mockage):

Let's write Sues.

Let's write flat, cardboardy characters, but make their environment beautiful and lush and well-written. Their character will be the only semi-distasteful thing.

Let's see what we can do with no rules and a good amount of time and a universe we know.

The only restrictions?

Pick a universe you know hardly at all, and use a character you would utterly hate otherwise.

And besides that, no rules.

(This will be part of the meta-novel in my NaNo... so expect mine to come up in November/December, because that's when NaNo is. Take your time doing yours if you accept.)

Sure, a Sue is a Sue is a Sue, but a Sue is a Sue is... me.

Oh, wait, I've got one thing to say. If kittens help everything, what if you're allergic to kittens? Because I am, and they never really helped me.

For kitten relief, try Cute Overload or Kittenwar. Their URLS are cuteoverload . com and kittenwar . com. Kittens and cute things galore.

Nancy was a a titian blonde, with a perfect GPA and two friends, one slightly male like in qualities and the other overweight a bit... It makes me laugh most of the time.

When I make a character, I think of their traits, I think of what they stand for and I write it down. If someone happens to think that there a Mary Sue, completely their problem. Not everyone has the same viewpoint either, so if you make a Mary Sue and you it's your idea of perfect it's not someone elses. For example if you thought the better thing to do in a situation was to stand and fight and someone else thinks that your being a plain idiot, then the character obviously isn't a mary sue, There just hard headed.

~ Flamingflie

Mabye I'm just stupid.

No, I'm not making this up.

She was the youngest officer in Starfleet... or something like that.

No, I didn't know the author.

I'm an Inter-ninja.

- Flamingflie

Yeah and I guess it was mean of Fang to severe the flock ( even for the short time it was), but I completely understand why he did it, and yes I do feel sorry for Ari, but still why was his concience just emerging at that particular time? He nearly killed Fang twice, he attempted to hurt Max on a regular occasion... From Fang's point of view I would be entirely pissed. It did show, however, how much both of them needed each other and showed Fang how freaking hard it was to be the leader.

Anyway, I have a question for the people who know how to get pictures on the side by their name.. How is that done?

Oh and is there any books people could recomend me, I need one. DarkBlade, you already did this.

And to get the picture up you go to your profile and go to "account" and click on the link called "avatar/image" and from there you can download a picture.

As for books, I'd reccomend the Twilight series (love it so much!), the Uglies series, and Phantom of the Opera (for the advanced reader).

I haven't read the twilight series, I have had people at school and on this sight telling me to read them, I guess I can't be a rebel forever and just not do it... right now I'm reading Peeps, it's slightly creepy and innapropriate, but the over all idea of the disease is interesting... I have read Uglies ( and the fourth just came out to let you all know) Have you ever read the midnighters? it is also by Scott Westerfield and I like it more than the Uglies trilogy ( just my preference I suppose).

The phantom of the Opera eh? I really should read some good old classics some time.

YOU MUST READ TWILIGHT! I hate to sound like a screaming fangirl, but it really is a unique story. And I'm being a rebel too, I haven't read Uglies (or Midnighters, for that matter), but everyone else says it's good and I don't think anyone would like what else I read, so I just said Uglies. Yes, POTO is a classic, and a very good one too! Plus you get credit for reading it before you have to in school. Well, for my area anyways.

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