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Saber Apricot
Topic: Various Language points
Depending on the region in Japan, the Japanese speech will differ. Sometimes it's referred to as a dialect, however, like with English, it doesn't really very that much.

京都弁 Kyoutouben Kyoto speech http://web.kyoto-inet.or.jp/people/esv389gt/kyotoben.html

関西弁Kansaiben Kansai speech http://www.lares.dti.ne.jp/~denjin/menu.html

北海道弁 Hokkaidoben Hokkaido speech http://kjhs.cool.ne.jp/Gogohokkaidoben.htm

If you watch Samurai movies that take place in Kyoto, sometimes the characters will use Kyotoben. It's very noticeable when women use it. Other movies that use it are Omocha (aka The Geisha House), Tsukigami, and Sakuran. In place of "nai" sentence endings, "hen" is used.

Kansaiben is sometimes (more like "often") used by guys who don't live in the Kansai region or have every lived there. Kansaiben is supposed to make the speaker sound like a tough guy you don't want to mess with. Biker gangs, delinquents, high school boys trying to sound tough, and others will use it. The live action Bebop High School movies are full of high school delinquents spouting kansaiben. Lots of rolling of Rs and "orya" and "korya" in those films.

Hokkdaioben is close to Tokyoben, which is considered to be neutral Japanese. Sometimes older generation will use "kai" instead of "ka" at the end of sentences and "kowai" is used in place for "tsukareru" (tired; worn out). Someone may ask "Kowai desu ka?" which means "Are you tired?" but it can be confused with "Are you scared?" since "kowai" means "scary"

#1 Jan 27th 2008, 11:47am
Saber Apricot
Japanese in your fanfic

If you want to use Japanese in your fanfic, even though your fic is primarily in English, you still need to do it right. If you don't know Japanese well enough to know which words to use or how to properly write out a sentence, then don't bother. Fangirl Japanese is annoying. But if you still want to use Japanese and will use it whether or not you should, take a look at the following info:

Online Japanese

Jim Breen dictionary: http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?1C

Don't use Babel fish or any online translator. They don't work. Using it will result in shitty Japanese that looks like it came from an online translator and, as well as the sentence being grammatical incorrect and awkward, it might make absolutely no sense at all. Use JimBreen Japanese/English dictionary online. For example, I typed in the word lazy into the word search. The first one 怠け者 (namakemono) is is good choice for the Japanese equivalent. The Ex link at the end of the definition will take you to a list of example sentences with that word. The sentences will be in Japanese and English: 彼が怠け者なのは私にはどうしようもない。(kare ga namakemono nano ha watashi ni ha doushiyoumonai.) "I cannot help his being lazy."

But how do I know I'm using the right words? What does it matter?

You copy and paste the word (in Japanese) into a search engine like google and see what results you get. If there are a lot of web results, including Japanese blogs, you probably can use the word. Words that aren't usually used aren't used for a reason. I found a Lord of the Rings fanfic that misused all kinds of random Japanese words. For example, the writer had a child character referred to her father figure as otokooya. Anyone who knows any Japanese will know that doesn't work. Why did she use it? Because she looked it up in a dictionary (probably online) or used something like Babelfish.

Grammar and personality

Another problem is that there are various styles of speech. Some words are gendered, which means girls will mostly use them or men. Other forms of speech are usually used by certain age groups as well. People will speak casual, formal, or polite/humble, but if a person speaks politely, he/she won't randomly switch back to casual speech. Also, when people speak Japanese, they're drop out particles and makes words into contractions. They might use reverse grammar too.

A: toukyou he ikimasuka? (Will you go to Tokyo?)

A: ikuno, toukyou? (Will you go to Tokyo?)

The style of speech contributes to the speaker's image. If a Japanese girl speaks too casually or even tough-like, she might come off as a butch lesbian or hard-core bitch and so on.

Other suggestions

*Don't drop in Japanese words into English speech unless there is a reason for it. Some reasons could be:

①The character is a stupid fangirl, who drops Japanese words like "kawaii" and "baka" in her speech because she thinks it's cool.

②There isn't an adequate enough translation of the word. This doesn't work for words like "baka" or "kawaii" but can be used if the character or narrator is trying to explain parts of a Japanese item (I don't know, like a sword) or a concept that might be foreign. Such concepts could be "aimai" or "amae". ...But there is little to no chance that anyone will need to do that in a fanfic (unless the fanfic is heavily Japan-related). 

③The characters are trying to discuss something without other characters, who don't know Japanese, from knowing.

④You're speaking Japanese-English or English-Japanese (not like Engrish), because it's easier for everyone in the group to understand. Using Japanese-English is good for groups of native Japanese, native English speakers, and foreigners who know both English and Japanese. Often Japanese will feel more comfortable with everyone speaking Japanese, so it's usually done when some people aren't good enough at Japanese to be able to follow everything. Sometimes English speakers (who understand Japanese) will respond in English and the people more familiar with Japanese will respond in Japanese. I do that when I'm feeling lazy with Japanese friends at parties.

*Stop using "baka" so much. People seriously don't use it that often. Think about it, how often do you use foolish or stupid in a sentence?

#2 Jan 27th 2008, 12:10pm
Saber Apricot
For words and example sentences, check out Jim Breen's online dictionary (http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/cgi-bin/wwwjdic.cgi?1C). To ensure the word you're looking for is the right Japanese word, plug it into a search engine like google and see what comes up. If it's used in blogs frequently, then it should be okay.

Don't use Bable fish or other online translators. The Japanese doesn't come out right. The same thing happens if you type in a Japanese sentence and try to translate it to English. From BabelFish (babelfish.altavista.com), "なぜ男性と女性の体育会系部活で女性はマネージャになりたいんですか?" ("Why do girls want to be managers in boy and girl athletic clubs?") came out as, "Why, in physical education meeting related section life of the man and the woman the woman would like to become the manager, it is?" If you use an online translator, the it'll be fangirl Japanese at best. So, if you don't know Japanese well enough to write Japanese sentences on your own, get someone to help. If you just aren't completely sure, try plugging it into a search engine and see what results you get and work from there.

When to use wa and ga

Particles: Wa VS Ga http://japanese.about.com/library/weekly/aa051301a.htm

For other particles, http://japanese.about.com/library/blparticles.htm

Gender and Japanese

Sometimes a person can hear the age and gender of a speaker in his/her style of speaking.

*Gender Differences in Japanese http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_spoken_Japanese

*Manifestations of Gender Distinction in the Japanese Language http://www.coolest.com/jpfm.htm

The only weird thing I noticed was that the shi, in Japanese, is written as si, so kashite is kasite. It's probably written that way because there is no si sound in hiragana, so anyone reading it should know that it's し (shi).

* http://logos.uoregon.edu/explore/socioling/gender2.html

Japanese onomatopoeias

There are three different categories of onomatopoeia in Japanese and they're often used in everyday conversation.

* The Sound-Symbolic System of Japanese by Shoko Hamano You can access it online through JSTOR

* Chit-Chat Among Japanese Farm Animals http://www.yourdictionary.com/library/japonoma.html

* http://www.oop-ack.com/manga/soundfx.html

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_sound_symbolism

#3 Jan 27th 2008, 12:12pm
Glacial Fang

I question why you have an Iin your screen/user name...

#4 Jul 28th 2008, 5:18am
DarkHonour

Saber,

Just a few bouts of curiosity.

Are you a native Japanese or someone who has achieved JLPT-1 a long time ago?

I find your ideas of Japanese well-written.

#5 Aug 07th 2008, 10:16am
Saber Apricot

Are you a native Japanese or someone who has achieved JLPT-1 a long time ago?

I find your ideas of Japanese well-written.

Ah, I don't think I've written much, and, no, I'm studying for level 2 and I don't feel like that has much to do with it. I've taken Japanese language classes and a linguistics course while I was studying abroad in Japan.

Studying JLPT alone isn't enough, it's only good for passing the test. Because even JLPT2 covers some grammar points that aren't even used anymore. Level1 has even more ridiculous vocabulary and grammar points, as well.

#6 Aug 24th 2008, 9:18am
Saber Apricot

Wa versus Ga

When to use wa/ga can be a very difficult thing for people learning Japanese. A Japanese linguistics professor I knew even insisted that a person should not concern oneself with trying to figure it out and come back to that issue later (ie after you're better at Japanese).

Point 1:

"wa" is is used immediately before the delivered information.

Ex. Tanaka shachou wa 4ji ni kimasu. 田中社長4時に来ます

"ga" is used right after the delivered information.

Ex. Tanaka shachou ga 4ji ni kimasu. 田中社長4時に来ます。

When using "wa" the important information was when Tanaka was coming, and when using "ga" the important information was who was coming.

Point 2

1. When mentioning something particular, "wa" is used.

Ex.1. 3nenmae ni ano eiga wo kuni de mimashita. -- Ano eiga wa, 3nenmae ni kuni de mimashita. 3年前にあの映画を国で見ました。→ あの映画、3年前に国で見ました。2.Osake wa suki nandesuga, sugu kao ga akakunatte shimaundesu. お酒好きなんですが、すぐ顔が赤くなってしまうんです。

When expressly trying to deny something, "wa" is used more often.

Ex. 1. Watashi no uchi ni inu wa imasen. 私の家にいません。 2. Watashi wa ano hito to wa kekkon shimasen. 私はあの人と結婚しません。

2. "wa" is used when comparing things.

Ex. Uchi no soto wa samui desuga, naka wa atatakai desu. 家の外寒いですが、暖かいです。

Point 3

1. "ga" is used when you're describing something you hear or see.

Ex. 1. A, ano tori ga mizu wo nondeimasu. あ、あの鳥水を飲んでいます。 2. Ame ga futte kimashita yo. 雨降ってきましたよ。

2. "wa" is used in complex sentences after the principle clause. "ga" is used for a dependent clause subject.

Ex. 1. Watashi wa kodomo ga kaita e wo mimashita. 私子供かいた絵を見ました。 2. Watashi wa itsumo kodomo ga netekara terebi wo mimasu. 私いつも子供寝てからテレビを見ます。

3. Noun 1 wa Noun 2 ga~ Noun 1 is the subject matter, usually the who/what/where of the something. Noun 2 is part of Noun 1, an emotion, capability, or object within possession or the place/space.

Ex. 1. Kono heya wa mado ga ookii desu ne. この部屋大きいですね。 2. Watashi wa kuruma ga hoshiidesu. ほしいです。

#7 Aug 24th 2008, 10:30am . Edited Aug 24th 2008, 10:38am
Oustiti

I have 5 English sentences which I need to translate in Japanese, I don't trust the online dictionaries and they don't provide the grammatical needs either, so I have been looking for someone who's native Japanese or knows the language well and could help me.

The sentences that I want to translate are: -For breaking the taboo -Don’t cry (could this be: nakuna or naka naide?) -Only my sins to hold onto -Not being able to slip out of/from death’s grasps -But/though never giving in

As you can see it aren't the most common sentences and I can't find it anywhere so could someone please help me? Could anyone tell me what they are in Japanese and maybe how you have to pronounce them correctly(in Arabic alphabet)?

Please help me and thank you. ^^

#8 Aug 09th 2009, 2:33am
shokanshiva

Yo saber apricot. I need help please. Can you tell me, how do I say 'thunder bear' in japanese please? it's important. And it would be nice if the translation will be without the japanese word 'no'.

#9 Oct 07th 2009, 8:23am
Scelestus

Yo saber apricot. I need help please. Can you tell me, how do I say 'thunder bear' in japanese please? it's important. And it would be nice if the translation will be without the japanese word 'no'.

There is no way for it to be without 'no'; you're joining two nouns. Japanese doesn't have a specific word for "thunder bear," so it'd be: kaminari no kuma (if you want kanji) or kaminari no bea.

Edit: Though, if you wanted to sound...illegit, you could say: sandaa bea.

#10 Oct 27th 2009, 4:56pm . Edited Oct 27th 2009, 5:01pm

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