I dunno. Give me your input.

They were friends once upon a time. And the only way I can see Cloud going for Sephiroth is if he wants that old Sephiroth back. But I think the beginnings of Cloud x Seph shipping can find its roots in the old "rivalry lust" idea.

I could see Sephiroth like Cloud in a sadistic way, the way he tortures the poor guy, screwing with his head, killing a girl he cared deeply about, burning down his hometown. Sort of "I like the way I can make him cower."

Cloud could be a masochist. I can actually picture him that way. You know what would be fun? Cloud playing mind games on Sephiroth. Now that would be interesting.

~Alexes

when I first saw that scene... it reminded me of something.... a phrase.

I will make you cry so that I can kiss away your tears....

no, really, cloXseph is GOD in my opinion.

FF VII spoilers

Cloud's got to have an extremely screwed mind if the pairing has to work - for starters, Sephiroth destroyed his village and killed his mother. He also killed one of his friends and injured another. Cloud HAS to be extremely stupid to return any feelings then - or have his mind extremely warped. I'll let you decide.

I'd say maybe in an AU, but it's a lot less likely to work in the actual FF VII world. Unless it's pre-Nibelheim, as somebody said.

End spoilers.

However, I got into the pairing before I had played the game or even watched the movie! I first got into it after playing Kingdom of Hearts and obviously new very little about there personalities, although I did know that they were enemies. This I think helped the pairing make more sense to me, I didn’t know how they were supposed to act so in the beginning I actually thought of Cloud as the blushing, shy, always smiling, and all around nice guy a lot of stories depicted him as.

I think the reason fanfic writers get it to ‘work’ is they either change the personality of Cloud and Sephiroth so completely that it works, its in an Alternate Universe, takes place before the game, takes place in a world where ShinRa corporation is good, or takes place in a world like our own where Cloud and Sephiroth (although I think this is a little freaky) are in High School.

Also if you’ve ever read the story Responsive by jessara40k you would understand how exactly it works (once you get past the M rated stuff and are reading the actual plot)

-Ladyhallia

I'm sorry, but changing the personalities of the characters won't make the pairing work - it just proves that you can make a pairing between two original characters who happen to be called and look like Cloud and Sephiroth. If you change the personalities of the characters without a good reason (and no, saying that you want two characters to get together isn't a good reason) then you are not writing about Sephiroth and Cloud, but rather two OCs with Cloud and Sephiroth's names and appearances.

And in AUs, I'm sure that you can change the backgrounds of the characters, but that doesn't mean that keeping the personalities isn't important. Otherwise, I might as well write almost exactly the same story about two men called James and George, not two men named Cloud and Sephiroth.

In all seriousness, the Cloud/Sephy pairing just doesn't make sense. I read some fics with this pairing, but it was usually AU or OOC. They are major, fight-to-the-death bad guys, and romance is not possible between them, in my opinion.

If it was before the Nibelheim incident, the the pair MIGHT make sense. Other than that, serve me a Cloud/Sephy pair wrapped with comedy and CraCK, please!

~Fran

I think most people are basing it on their relationship while in Shinra

together.

personally i like the pairing and it can work very well if you plot it out well.

But there are several, which is lucky enough for us :D. knowingshadows, for one, has that freaking brilliant epic of hers, and then there's the famous twigcollins (her fic is off FFnet but is at her website

- http://www.eukaryotic.dreamhost.com/NewFiles/academy.html and is WELL WORTH reading all of her fiftytrillion chapters.) There are also more excellent writers on here, and on the livejournal community myprettypuppet, run by jen0va99, who is on FFnet as well.

So yeah, as long as you know where to look you can dig up the good stuff buried within all those tedious, badly written (or well written...) pwps.

I'll start looking on Sunday, tomorrow I have band competition. :D

Wish me luck!!

Angelistical06- Yeah, I've read your fics. But they're mostly based on purely sex, right? I think the point being driven here is that fics should be able to strive without leaning heavily on the sex factor. I liked 'Storm Clouds in My View' though :D.

Anyways, I really like this pairing, and not the master/slave pairings... those make me sad...

Besides, Sephiroth wasn't crazy in the beginning, he went crazy cause of Hojo and JENOVA, he was sane before and he was Zacks best friend, and Zack was also friends with Cloud so I see this pairing happening, and just cause you've read a couple of bad fics on them doesn't mean their all that bad...

sacarlettHuntress- you've been shipping Fics!! Could you send me some!!

Oh, and I second the sex thing, a little here and there ain't too bad but I think that sometimes authors rely a little too much on it... I think you should build the relationship in any fic before you add the sex...

What do you want? I have reclists, Lists by authors I'd highly recommend on LJ (Mixed pairings FFVII yaoi mostly, but the recurring themes are SxC, ZxC, SxZxC, SxZxCxA), as for on ffnet, my uttermost favourites (and some old faves from back in the days when I couldn't tell good fic from bad, but I cbf going through them all) are, of course, on my fav list :D

Just tell me what you want, i'm happy to help a fellow shipper find the good stuff, although my replies might be late due to pure holiday laziness.

(Merry Christmas to you and everyone else in this forum/thread btw~!)

MERRY CHRISTMAS FO YOU TOO!!!!!!!!!

*showers everyone with candycanes*

Sugary goodness! =D

1) It's a twisted relationship. If we stick to canon, then there's no way any relationship with Sephiroth is going to be anywhere near normal. He's still going to be his crazy, evil self.

2) We pull the "Jenova controlled him" AU card. This makes a rather decent excuse for a number of Seph pairings. Sure, the relationship might have a rocky start, especially with a member of Crisis Avalanche (My little nickname for the party), but it's not implausible that someone could fall in love with him if he was completely under Jenova's control. Heck, Cloud could even sympathize with him, seeing as he would have been manipulated/controlled in the same way.

3) It occurs Pre-Nibelheim. This is where I can see the largest number of Sephiroth pairings working. While he might have been distant, he was still a rather decent guy before the Nibelheim Incident. He had a couple of friends, watched out for his allies, and pretty much any acts of cruelty/evil/whatever that he committed were just part of the job (Not an exceptional excuse, but if Reno can get into a relationship with someone after killing what was likely thousands of people by dropping the S7 Plate, Sephiroth could probably manage when he did fewer things than that during a war). Not to mention that the reason for the attraction on the other person's part of the relationship could already be at least somewhat explained (Not hard to believe people would have crushes on Shinra/SOLDIER's poster boy).

And nothing is ever late, VinCon! ^_^

Sephiroth can just... NEVER be in a relationship. His attitude and actions just don't ALLOW it. Set it pre-Nibelheim? He doesn't even KNOW Cloud then. Hell, he doesn't even know Cloud DURING the Nibelheim scene. And by the time he DOES understand who Cloud is, they're already mortal enemies. So I'd say that any Cloud/Sephiroth pairing would have to be AU.

And hell, even those do so much fiddling and muddling with their characters that it's... barbaric.

"But oh, it was always Jenova's fault!" So f-ing what? That's like pardoning a stupid drunk driver because the alcohol made him do it. Or pardoning an assassin because his government was making him do it. I seriously cannot stand that argument. Even if it hadn't been said that Sephiroth controlled everything he did, I would have scoffed at that argument.

The only yaoi Cloud pairing, the ONLY one I see as being even REMOTELY possible is Cloud/Vincent. The two are too broody to ever even consider the remote possibility, but it's still the only option I see as being viable. Cloud/Kadaj/Yazzo/Loz? They're just like Sephiroth. Cloud/Cid/Barret/Reno/Rude/Genesis/Angeal/Zack/Carpenter 1/Weiss/SOLDIER 2nd Class? They have about as much in common as hydrogen and plutonium. (And if they are similar, keep it to yourself to make me feel smart.)

Bah, rant rant rant...

In reply to Kaj-Nrig:

Firstly, it's FAN fiction. That means, It's Not REAL. It's, basically, a chance for fans to experiment and explore avenues of the story/world not yet explored by the conventional text. That means, Fanfic is permission to ** with canon. This includes ,yes, fiddling with characters. Not major OOCness, but, say, change them to suit the circumstances of the fic- so if Zack constantly mellows out Sephiroth, then he doesn't have to be an insane heartless killer, does he? I mean, at one point he was what people could consider 'sane', right?

And who are you to say he can never be in a relationship? The only (and I'm taking the original game as Canon here, as I don't fully accept the constant Retconning via CC and all those as the original canon) time we saw Sephiroth in the game talking, Pre **-hitting-the-ceiling-fan was in Nibel. If he's in Nibel, we can assume he's being affected by Jenova. If he's being affected by Jenova, then he's not going to be completely himself. (And, Yes, I did read your little drunk-driver Metaphor)

But, really, If you're going to outright shoot down any /Sephiroth fics, then that's a bloody lot of fanfic writers who you are denying that satisfying tingle of happiness when their OTP hook up for the first time. If you have an OTP, than it's more satisfying to read a badly written fic with your OTP than a very, very well written fic with someone else's otp, which you might think is ok, but it's just not the same.

And besides, love is madness, isn't it?

For another besides, more than half of the fics for FFVII (rough guesstimate there) are character-driven VS plot-driven. More than 3/4 (I think I read something that said 95%) of us are women. The stereotype is that women like romance. Goddamn, I know it's true with me. Sure, I like all those other things, but only if it has even the tiniest bit of romance. For romance, you need people. If you find a guy (say, Cloud) and you don't want to pair him up with any of the girls- Don't like Cloti, Aeris is dead, Yuffie is- just no, Elena's in love with Tseng in your fic etc etc, then you can look for a ...different avenue. And I think they're so cute together. So. Cute. Together.

So, Kaj-Nrig, in summary, if you don't like it, don't read it :D. Because we will write it!

Very true, and Zack being a sort of "stress ball" for Sephiroth doesn't seem nearly as far-fetched, considering his relationship with the guy doesn't seem all that bad. The only problem is that if you were to, say, make Sephy and Zack love each other, there'd be the issue of dealing with Aerith. And the rest of the canon. (For instance, Sephiroth doesn't even seem to be very "emotional" or in need of mellowing by Zack, even before Nibelheim.) Too many Seph/Zack fics don't even bother to do that. They establish that the two are in love, which isn't that big a problem, but they don't try to work out the changes in story that that would create.

Granted, canon can be fiddled with, but until there's a yaoi fic that completely explores, for example, the reasons why Zack and Sephiroth are in love and how they got there, then I'm going to stick with the "Seph just can't be with anyone" line.

And who are you to say he can never be in a relationship?

.....

If he's in Nibel, we can assume he's being affected by Jenova. If he's being affected by Jenova, then he's not going to be completely himself.

1. I'm saying that he can't be in one because that's what my honest opinion is. I just figured that it wasn't necessary to say that "it's my opinion" because we could all assume that since I DID write it, it was probably my opinion.

2. Just because he's in Nibelheim doesn't mean that he is ABSOLUTELY being controlled by Jenova. It's only after he goes to the reactor that he starts going all apeshit. After all, he doesn't start going insane while taking that picture with Zack and Tifa. He doesn't raze the town the moment he gets into town. Some could argue that he's under Jenova's control (which is a... he? she? it?), but they'd have to make a very plausible argument for it.

But, really, If you're going to outright shoot down any /Sephiroth fics, then that's a bloody lot of fanfic writers who you are denying that satisfying tingle of happiness when their OTP hook up for the first time. If you have an OTP, than it's more satisfying to read a badly written fic with your OTP than a very, very well written fic with someone else's otp, which you might think is ok, but it's just not the same.

1. OTP = ? (Official Triangle Pairing?)

2. If there's a badly-written fic, I'll respond to it in a way that most people would consider flaming. I think of it as charbroiled criticism, but hey, whatever floats their boat. If there's a well-written fic that, while being well-written, doesn't portray the characters as faithfully as it could, then I'll say so.

Many Seph/etc. fics, while fundamentally sound in their descriptions and technical skill, just ignore too many of the issues surrounding the pairings. For instance, any Seph/post-Meteor person would have to inexorably deal with both the fact that Seph is alive again and that he did do a lot of damage. You could definitely pull the Jenova card, but that's not gonna stop the other person from being god-awful scared (and bitter and angry) of him.

For another besides, more than half of the fics for FFVII (rough guesstimate there) are character-driven VS plot-driven. More than 3/4 (I think I read something that said 95%) of us are women. The stereotype is that women like romance. Goddamn, I know it's true with me. Sure, I like all those other things, but only if it has even the tiniest bit of romance. For romance, you need people. If you find a guy (say, Cloud) and you don't want to pair him up with any of the girls- Don't like Cloti, Aeris is dead, Yuffie is- just no, Elena's in love with Tseng in your fic etc etc, then you can look for a ...different avenue. And I think they're so cute together. So. Cute. Together.

So, Kaj-Nrig, in summary, if you don't like it, don't read it :D. Because we will write it!

1. I wouldn't doubt that 95% of fanfic writers are women. (It sure explains a whole mess of these crack yaoi pairings out there... Vince/Cid, Yazoo/Reno, Loz/Rude...)

2. There's nothing wrong with liking romance. Notice, even in a bona fide guy flick like Transformers, there's a bit of romance. (Granted, the chick was hot as all temptation, so there was really no doubt that she'd make out with the guy at the end.) The only problem is when that becomes ALL that matters. Character-driven doesn't mean plotless. Even if the plot's something mundane, like Cloud developing feelings for Vincent and he's got to deal with the repercussions, there's still a plot.

Romance without plot is a lot like ** without plot - for ** and giggles, it's great, but for actual skilled writing, it's like a slap to the face.

3. ...Vincent and Yuffie are so. cute. together. But that doesn't mean that I should just throw them together without even trying to develop them in the slightest.

4. I don't read it; that's the issue. I'd like to read it, because I think that if pulled off, it could work wonders, but so far, there's only been one fic (Conflicts of Interest by a Madamhydra) that has been able to do that. And it's not even certain if it IS a Seph/Cloud story, because it hasn't been updated in about five years, which is a disappointment. But I digress.

So you're going to completely discredit the 'snippet of life' fic? Where we are shown just a window into a character's, or plural, daily going-ons? Can't an author take it for given that this relationship she shows you now has somehow sprung up, and that she's not going to take the time for a long-winded and detailed relationship, just accept that you'll accept it happened, somehow?

2. Just because he's in Nibelheim doesn't mean that he is ABSOLUTELY being controlled by Jenova.

As true as this is, the original Canon gives us NO evidence to Sephiroth's attitude OUT OF nibelheim. For this reason, it is a common Fanon assumption that Sephiroth is effected by hearing Jenova's voice and influence due to proximity to the parasite. Although the reactor is quite a way up the mountain from the town, it is assumed that Jenova Cells alter hearing in the same way Mako Cells do- only people with Jenova presence in their bodies can hear her. For that same reason Nibel is portrayed as a VERY out of the place town- tiny and isolated, with no chance in hell that Seph will encounter Jenova's (supersonic, maybe) voice/soundwaves/presence, unless of course, Hojo wants it that way (another strong Fanon)

1. OTP = ? (Official Triangle Pairing?)

OTP: One true pairing. I assumed you'd know, as you seem more than competent with proper English, thus I assumed the same would apply for common phrases used on FFnet.

2. If there's a badly-written fic, I'll respond to it in a way that most people would consider flaming. I think of it as charbroiled criticism, but hey, whatever floats their boat. If there's a well-written fic that, while being well-written, doesn't portray the characters as faithfully as it could, then I'll say so.

What I really notice here is the 'As faithfully as it could'- again, I stress my point that a lot of the idea of Fanfic is playing with the characters. I truly believe in allowing leeway, although I have to agree there are a lot of badly-written, or simply OOC fics out there. One I am shamed to mention is slashybeast16's 'Tropical Passion' which exhibits both these qualities (although I guess it's not -that- badly written, but still horrible to read) is an example of these- but you will find these fics, to varying degrees, in every fandom and pairing.

You could definitely pull the Jenova card, but that's not gonna stop the other person from being god-awful scared (and bitter and angry) of him.

*insert cliche answer about love conquering every hurdle and time healing all wounds here* erm, this is a big boundary to tackle, and while some fics do it well (after all, AVALANCHE's seen a lot of **) some don't. Again, you can't expect every writer on the site to be a master at writing (I certainly don't consider myself one), and we all have our little pitfalls.

1. I wouldn't doubt that 95% of fanfic writers are women. (It sure explains a whole mess of these crack yaoi pairings out there... Vince/Cid, Yazoo/Reno, Loz/Rude...)

I know of at least one male writing yaoi on this site, and a lot of women that disregard yaoi in place of conventional romance.

Romance without plot is a lot like ** without plot - for ** and giggles, it's great, but for actual skilled writing, it's like a slap to the face.

You've heard of the phrase PWP? "** without Plot' Just because there's not PLOT plot doesn't mean it can't be well writtern, although sometimes a medicore fic CAN be spoiled by a badly written lemon, a lot of PWP are well written and better than some fics out there.

4. I don't read it; that's the issue. I'd like to read it, because I think that if pulled off, it could work wonders, but so far, there's only been one fic (Conflicts of Interest by a Madamhydra) that has been able to do that. And it's not even certain if it IS a Seph/Cloud story, because it hasn't been updated in about five years, which is a disappointment. But I digress.

That is a good fic, but I could point you to a fully completed fic often seen as the 'holy grail' of SxC- http : / / www . eukaryotic . dreamhost . com / NewFiles / academy . html (remove spaces) is the site of the well-known writer Twig Collins (left the site a while ago) her fic, A long Hard Road, is one of the most well known SxC fics (although criticized for a bit of a collapse of Cloud's manhood [which kind of discredits my whole point but... let's ignore that..] once he hooks up with Sephiroth) it tackles 'Ressurectionfic' at the same time as delivering a brilliant story with a engaging plot. Another well-known fic is Knowingshadows's Fusion, hosted on FFnet, which documents the impending romance of the two before nibel. Both show Cloud's acceptance of Sephiroth's role in Raping the proverbial Puppy during the game.

My final point is such: the Sephiroth you know seems to be a different Sephiroth to the one we (And I say this as as SxC fan, but not necessarily carrying all of their opinions with this statement)know. I believe every 'Sephiroth' that exists in the pairings is different, but all correct- in the eyes of the people the fics are intended for. For instance, klepto-maniac0's fic Put your Lights On documents the life of him with his non-canon daughter, and has Sephiroth characterized as I can agree on, but not unnecessarily accept. So, each subfandom's Sephiroth would probably seem even the tiniest bit OOC by another subfandom's standard, although there is quite a lot integration among them, depending on which 'circles' (much less evident in the FFnet community than the Lj writing communities, but still present) you travel in.

On another note, is anyone else in this thread? Did we scare everyone off with our scarily long posts? Hey? Guys? What're your opinions?

On another another note- this is actually probably good practice for any Literature essays I am to write in the near future. Heh.

Fanfiction is limited in that it has to draw itself from the canon material. Being so, any major changes to it should have a purpose, a reason. So no, I usually don't accept these "snippet of life" fics; while you can assume that, for instance, Cloud can fall in love with Vincent, if his character in the fanfic is drastically different from his character in canon, then there should be some sort of explanation, some sort of progression of events. And his going from an (assumed) heterosexual stance to being a homosexual certainly is a drastic difference in character.

As true as this is, the original Canon gives us NO evidence to Sephiroth's attitude OUT OF nibelheim. For this reason, it is a common Fanon assumption that Sephiroth is effected by hearing Jenova's voice and influence due to proximity to the parasite.

Fanon and canon are two completely different things. It was once fanon that Vincent was Seph's father, that he was from Wutai, and that he and Lucrecia loved each other.

I don't trust fanon, and I certainly don't go by it. I also never even considered that he was being affected by Jenova before he realized what he was made of. I never considered that a piece of fanon. I considered it as a common INTERPRETATION, but certainly not fanon.

OTP: One true pairing. I assumed you'd know, as you seem more than competent with proper English, thus I assumed the same would apply for common phrases used on FFnet.

I'd seen other stuff before, but never OTP. Maybe I'd just been gone when it first started being used.

What I really notice here is the 'As faithfully as it could'- again, I stress my point that a lot of the idea of Fanfic is playing with the characters. I truly believe in allowing leeway ....

...but you will find these fics, to varying degrees, in every fandom and pairing.

Leeway I'm willing to give. There's nothing wrong with that; my interpretation of so-and-so is going to be different from yours. Again, it's an aspect of fanfiction. But severing key ties with the canon (like, let's say... saying that Cloud was a SOLDIER) draws questions about whether the story you're basing your fic off of is really the same story that everybody else knows.

And yes, there are bad apples in every tree. But if those same bad apples feed off each other without someone to intercede, then it's only going to spread. Look at FFnet. There're more bad apples here than there are succulent and delicious ones.

Again, you can't expect every writer on the site to be a master at writing (I certainly don't consider myself one), and we all have our little pitfalls.

But the good author will recognize problems like these AND work to solve them. It's not enough simply to realize that Seph wouldn't really be wrapped into Cloud's arms like a mother kangaroo's pouch over her kid; there has to at least be an attempt at solving this issue.

I know of at least one male writing yaoi on this site, and a lot of women that disregard yaoi in place of conventional romance.

As do I. I still wouldn't be surprised to find out that 95% of fanfic writers are women. (What'd surprise me is if 95% of yaoi writers are male. Awkward...)

You've heard of the phrase PWP? "** without Plot' Just because there's not PLOT plot doesn't mean it can't be well writtern, although sometimes a medicore fic CAN be spoiled by a badly written lemon, a lot of PWP are well written and better than some fics out there.

My definition of ** without plot would be "they see, they screw, they sleep." There are certainly explicit stories that go beyond that, and those I'd like to consider lemons, because of the fact that there's still some substance to them.

And yes, many a lemon is a good read, but those wouldn't be PWP.

That is a good fic, but I could point you to a fully completed fic often seen as the 'holy grail' of SxC- <names and titles and webpages>

While I'll be skeptical, I'll at least check those stories out. Nothing too graphic, I hope. (A guy can accept homosexuality, but that doesn't mean he won't blow chunks when someone shows him two guys tongue-locking or butt-bumping.)

My final point is such: the Sephiroth you know seems to be a different Sephiroth to the one we know. I believe every 'Sephiroth' that exists in the pairings is different, but all correct- in the eyes of the people the fics are intended for.

"In the eyes of the people the fics are intended for." I'd like to see a Sephiroth that does NOT match the one that is "in the eyes of the people the fics are intended for."

...but, I suppose, I'll concede that point, because I'll evenly admit that I'm very much the same way.

Mayhaps I'll write my own Seph/Cloud story, if for no other reason than to test out my own ideals on the subject matter.

I have a feeling we should abandon this line of thought, as we seem to be at a bit of an impasse... I am utterly convinced that a writer shouldn't have to hold the reader's hand through the fic- that the reader should 'feel' his or her way into the fic, and should it be a snippet, feel that this has somehow happened. After all, if there were only longwinded fics and no one-shots or snippets-of-life (I need a better name for them), the various ways characters could hook up would be -even more- exhausted.

I don't trust fanon, and I certainly don't go by it. I also never even considered that he was being affected by Jenova before he realized what he was made of. I never considered that a piece of fanon. I considered it as a common INTERPRETATION, but certainly not fanon.

Another stalemate. I'm afraid I can't possibly agree with this- I believe strongly in writing what I feel is right, regardless of whether or not I am bending the truth. Hmm, maybe I should go into Journalism :D -jokes!

I'd seen other stuff before, but never OTP. Maybe I'd just been gone when it first started being used.

I'm guessing you don't read romance much, if at all (and judging from your profile...)

And yes, there are bad apples in every tree. But if those same bad apples feed off each other without someone to intercede, then it's only going to spread. Look at FFnet. There're more bad apples here than there are succulent and delicious ones.

Yes, but a) it makes finding that ONE FIC even better, and b) scraps on a compost heap end up supporting other plants. So, we learn from our mistakes, but in a community like FFnet we quite often learn from each other's. And you can't expect everyone who enjoys fandom lit to be a great writer, can you? Everyone has to start somewhere, even if they have to write horribly embarrassing (to themselves, at a later date [perhaps when it's read at their wedding]) and bad quality fics before they gain enough EXP to level up and become decent enough, or at least legible.

And his going from an (assumed) heterosexual stance to being a homosexual certainly is a drastic difference in character.

I'm not going to argue about his homosexuality (that is neither here nor there) or the fact that the only woman he kissed in the whole game was Yuffie, as I'm forseeing that would turn this very, very messy. And I don't really want to do that- Let's just agree the game is neutral on this. As a yaoi fan I don't read ANY heterosexuality into Cloud's character ingame, but neither, as a logical person (arguable) can I argue his homosexuality. As it has been noted, Nomura hasn't even stated whether or not Cloud did ever hook up with Tifa- part of the whole Cloti versus Cloris (or whatever they call themselves now) spat is that Nomura (I seem to recall reading this somewhere) purposely keeps it in the air as to keep interest.

But severing key ties with the canon (like, let's say... saying that Cloud was a SOLDIER) draws questions about whether the story you're basing your fic off of is really the same story that everybody else knows.

Everyone's personal bias changes their interpretation of media. THis is an undeniable and unchangable fact. Just because we're playing the same game doesn't mean we're going to understand the storyline the same. For instance, you mention Cloud being in SOLDIER. In a way, that is part of the canon, as it is accepted that Cloud believedhe was a SOLDIER, and so for the start of the game, it is canon that Cloud believes he was a SOLDIER. Some people call Cloud a SOLDIER- for instance, I was reading an Anime magazine today and a small article talked about Crisis Core, citing Cloud briefly as the main character of FFVII and then going on to say the game centred around 'a fellow soldier and friend of Cloud, Zack'. This magazine specializes in anime, but the FF series is recognized as breaching the border between anime and game, being of the Japanese influence and sometimes bunched into the same category. As such, the article's writer was familiar with the game, but this didn't change the fact that he called Cloud a soldier (perhaps as to not spoil both games, perhaps the truth was too long-winded for the article, although he could have just called them friends). My point? Canon is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. You have to be one of the biggest sticklers for pure canon I have met, no offence. In fact, I almost wonder why you read fanfiction, as most fanwriters and fanartists apply creative license to their works.

But the good author will recognize problems like these AND work to solve them. It's not enough simply to realize that Seph wouldn't really be wrapped into Cloud's arms like a mother kangaroo's pouch over her kid; there has to at least be an attempt at solving this issue.

And the good author will. Just because you don't choose to accept their solutions doesn't mean they haven't done anything.

For me a part of fanfic is seeing how the characters react to situations, then solving the situations using the characters. I've seen this before. Isn't that what you're describing?

As do I. I still wouldn't be surprised to find out that 95% of fanfic writers are women. (What'd surprise me is if 95% of yaoi writers are male. Awkward...)

...Are you a guy? Because that would explain why you seem so... anti-yaoi... and anti-romance.... but. Uh. That's a little biased of me, to apply such stereotypes. But now I'm sorta curious, even if there's only a 50% chance i'll be wrong.

My definition of ** without plot would be "they see, they screw, they sleep." There are certainly explicit stories that go beyond that, and those I'd like to consider lemons, because of the fact that there's still some substance to them.

Your point being?

And yes, many a lemon is a good read, but those wouldn't be PWP.

I never said they would be.

On an unrelated note, I think I'm going to get RSI in my wrist from going up to my post-in-progress, and then down to your point to read it again and construct my rebuttle.

While I'll be skeptical, I'll at least check those stories out. Nothing too graphic, I hope. (A guy can accept homosexuality, but that doesn't mean he won't blow chunks when someone shows him two guys tongue-locking or butt-bumping.)

So you're a guy? Hmm, waht's the opposite of t1ts or GTFO? Just for ** and giggles, naturally.

...but, I suppose, I'll concede that point, because I'll evenly admit that I'm very much the same way.

You have no idea how glad I am to hear there's something we can agree on. I was getting sorta worried you were going to come out of my computer monitor and stab me in the face for being so stubborn, or something.

Mayhaps I'll write my own Seph/Cloud story, if for no other reason than to test out my own ideals on the subject matter.

Huh. You are a more accepting and willing to change person than some I have encountered (or avoided).

Maybe I should stop posting when I'm tired. My wierdness is showing.

Another stalemate. I'm afraid I can't possibly agree with this- I believe strongly in writing what I feel is right, regardless of whether or not I am bending the truth. Hmm, maybe I should go into Journalism :D -jokes!

Oh, of course. I operate on the belief that Vincent no longer mopes about over Lucrecia after the end of the game. But does that mean that it's fanon? Of course not. It's just my interpretation. I always considered fanon to be a belief that a LOT of people shared.

I'm guessing you don't read romance much, if at all (and judging from your profile...)

Eh, I definitely like romance; I just don't do much of it because so many others do, and I'd say they probably do it better than I do. If I do do romance, I like ones that aren't necessarily happy-ending worthy. Any Vincent pairing, for example. I also wrote a Red/Tifa story, which I wouldn't consider romantic, but which I would like to think seems more... "real" than other stories.

Canon is in the eye of the beholder, I guess. You have to be one of the biggest sticklers for pure canon I have met, no offence. In fact, I almost wonder why you read fanfiction, as most fanwriters and fanartists apply creative license to their works.

1. Canon changing is definitely fine, but there has to be a plausible reason behind it. Reviving Aerith/Seph/Zack/3 Stooges, for instance, would require a LOT of convincing.

2. No offense taken.

3. Creative license is also fine; hell, I even wrote an AU of my own, which would definitely be considered artistic license. I just believe that the fanfiction medium is inevitably constrained by its source.

And the good author will. Just because you don't choose to accept their solutions doesn't mean they haven't done anything.

I'll accept those solutions IF the author actually provides them. The homosexuality fandom is especially ridden with underdevelopment and unbelievability. Some can manage to go beyond that; I'll support those that do. I won't support those that are intentionally ignorant of their shortcomings, though.

Your point being?

I'd gotten the impression that you lumped the two genres together (lemon and PWP), that's all.

...Are you a guy? Because that would explain why you seem so... anti-yaoi... and anti-romance.... but. Uh. That's a little biased of me, to apply such stereotypes. But now I'm sorta curious, even if there's only a 50% chance i'll be wrong.

......

So you're a guy? Hmm, waht's the opposite of t1ts or GTFO? Just for ** and giggles, naturally.

1. 100$ male, unless I have an extra hole I don't know about.

2. I'm not so much anti-yaoi/romance as I am anti-bad stories. Those two genres just seem to be more rife with bad stories than others.

3. I don't understand the last part. Expliquez-moi, s'il vous plait.

Oh, of course. I operate on the belief that Vincent no longer mopes about over Lucrecia after the end of the game. But does that mean that it's fanon? Of course not. It's just my interpretation. I always considered fanon to be a belief that a LOT of people shared.

Would you agree there's a certain boundary outside of acceptable character twisting, into simply warping the character into something they're not? I think the hardest thing is measuring that type of stuff, as anyone whose done highschool science knows qualitative data is nigh impossible to properly decide. It's both a blessing and a downfall, that it allows people to not go nazi on anyone stepping over the boundaries but we also have fics that push those same boundaries.

Eh, I definitely like romance; I just don't do much of it because so many others do, and I'd say they probably do it better than I do. If I do do romance, I like ones that aren't necessarily happy-ending worthy. Any Vincent pairing, for example. I also wrote a Red/Tifa story, which I wouldn't consider romantic, but which I would like to think seems more... "real" than other stories.

That's certainly interesting. And ...creepy. I could suggest you drop your qualms about SephXCloud when you write (if not ship) NanaTi, but then I wouldn't have the fun of a online debate that ISN'T a flame war. And poor Vincent, can't he be happy?

1. Canon changing is definitely fine, but there has to be a plausible reason behind it. Reviving Aerith/Seph/Zack/3 Stooges, for instance, would require a LOT of convincing.

What happened to 'Accept what the Author sez, kthankbai'? I happen to enjoy the better written res fics... but I really just like the pre-crisis gang checking out Cloud's mad skillz and general awesomeness in present time.

I'll accept those solutions IF the author actually provides them. The homosexuality fandom is especially ridden with underdevelopment and unbelievability. Some can manage to go beyond that; I'll support those that do. I won't support those that are intentionally ignorant of their shortcomings, though.

a) fanfic is highly a learning environment. A lot of people come here to hone underdeveloped writing skills, and simply can't address the situation they have created. I accept this. Point b) being sometimes they don't want to write out the entire plot- it doesn't have to be a Nancy Drew novel or anything and I appreciate you didn't mean anything like that but I must again stress that just because you don't like 'slice of life' or drabbles or ficlets or anything else doesn't mean you are widely supported.

I'd gotten the impression that you lumped the two genres together (lemon and PWP), that's all.

Lemon's not a genre, It's just something happening in a fic. Sex scenes are accepted in literature and indeed convey events and meaning, as well as emotion, but in PWPs that's all it is. Have we got this clear, now?

1. 100$ male, unless I have an extra hole I don't know about.

*Plugs in electric drill* one of us, one of us!

2. I'm not so much anti-yaoi/romance as I am anti-bad stories. Those two genres just seem to be more rife with bad stories than others.

I'm blaming 'monkey see, monkey do'. Yaoi is popular. It's good for attracting good artists, but for those little bushthings that simply wanna maybe get some attention or try to be cool, it's perfect. Yaoi first developed in japanese manga and anime, and spread to other places from there. You don't usually find the word Yaoi in, say, harry potter because they're not as aware of anime as the people who watched Advent Children (I tend to blame AC for brining in millions of prepubescent screaming fangirls), so it's cool to do japanese stuff and cool to write yaoi and (urrgh! This ** me off!) cool to use japanese phrases.

That last bit was a little off-track, yeah. Apoligies.

3. I don't understand the last part. Expliquez-moi, s'il vous plait.

It's generally accepted that instead of a screaming fangirl, I'm simply a hyper, weird one. You didn't read anything weird in that last post?

Oh, a fic I recently discovered with a great use of serious (whilst being a great AC parody) SxC with dark underthemes is Amarissia's 'The Silence of the Chocobos'. (I wouldn't reccomend you read her other stuff- though, I'm pretty sure it'd push your buttons in the wrong way. 'The madness of Angels creeps me the hell out). It's a great example of good yaoi writing, and seriousness in parodies. Or something. Read it.

Read any of those other fics I recced yet? What did you think?

are my replies shrinking? Who actually uses the 'highlight' format, except trollers?

Sure, why not. I've gotten lost on this part of the conversation, so I'll nod and say, "Yes."

That's certainly interesting. And ...creepy. I could suggest you drop your qualms about SephXCloud when you write (if not ship) NanaTi, but then I wouldn't have the fun of a online debate that ISN'T a flame war. And poor Vincent, can't he be happy?

1. Ah, but it's not Nanaki/Tifa. You'd have to see for yourself, if you were so inclined.

2. The reason I can more reasonably see this than Seph/Cloud is because... well, for one, they're both alive, and for another, Tifa's got that thing where she can be matched up with any of the guys (perhaps not Cid, but he's already got a lady) with relative ease. Nanaki's got the intelligence and the personality that would certainly fit rather well with hers. The only issue is that he's a dog/cat/jaguar/puma thing. I'd definitely see any pairings with him as another "Romeo and Juliet" type of romance. Y'know, tragedy and all that.

3. Vincent can be happy... given he loses that immortality of his. If it's implemented, then it's all good. If it's not, then he's bound to be unhappy. That's mainly it.

a) fanfic is highly a learning environment. A lot of people come here to hone underdeveloped writing skills, and simply can't address the situation they have created. I accept this. Point b) being sometimes they don't want to write out the entire plot- it doesn't have to be a Nancy Drew novel or anything and I appreciate you didn't mean anything like that but I must again stress that just because you don't like 'slice of life' or drabbles or ficlets or anything else doesn't mean you are widely supported.

1. "Incidental ignorance" is different from "intentional ignorance." Many of these authors DO realize the real problems involved. They just choose not to address it. The few that just haven't been able to deal with it often make up for it with a palpable skill. It's hard to explain.

2. Writing the whole plot's not the problem; the problem is just that if it goes TOO far from the original, then it's... jarring. You could write a story where Tifa and Vincent are together and he's no longer immortal, but go to the point where they've got kids, and that'd be going a bit TOO far ahead. It's too far of a step forward.

Seph/Cloud stories, too, would have to deal with this. A one-shot from a bit after Seph's revival dealing with them working things out wouldn't be so bad (it'd be hard reading for me, but it wouldn't be bad), but write a story where they're married and have mpreg kids and whatnot...

3. I know I'm one of the few that get really anal about all this. Oh, well, what can I say, at the end of the day, honey, I'm still a guy. (Mooched off of Brad Paisley's song.)

Lemon's not a genre, It's just something happening in a fic. Sex scenes are accepted in literature and indeed convey events and meaning, as well as emotion, but in PWPs that's all it is. Have we got this clear, now?

Neine. C'est pas finis.

Nah, it's good.

Yaoi first developed in japanese manga and anime, and spread to other places from there. You don't usually find the word Yaoi in, say, harry potter because they're not as aware of anime as the people who watched Advent Children (I tend to blame AC for brining in millions of prepubescent screaming fangirls), so it's cool to do japanese stuff and cool to write yaoi and (urrgh! This ** me off!) cool to use japanese phrases.

And oh, does that annoy me. The worst part is when they start spouting broken and heavily-accented Japanese phrases in public like they're experts at the language or something... it grinds my gears like nothing else.

One thing I'll say, though, is that I don't really understand why people've decided to call homosexual stories "yaoi." Sure, it's a Japanese phrase, but honestly, why don't you just say "guy on guy lovin'"? C'mon, we speak English, not Japanese. De gozaru yo?

It's generally accepted that instead of a screaming fangirl, I'm simply a hyper, weird one. You didn't read anything weird in that last post?

Yes, I did. Gotcha.

Read any of those other fics I recced yet? What did you think?

Answer:

I had several assignments that had priority.

behehehe.

I have to admit, I absolutely LOVE writing Cloud/Seph.

I think the point that it doesn't logically work is what makes it all the more probable, if you get what I mean?

The thing is that in sooooo many relationships, There are countless differences between the pairs. This is real life I'm talking about. hehe. i know heaps of people that have gotten together and made my jaw drop. Certain situations where I sit back and go "But you two totally don't go together!"

The thing is, who is anyone to judge who people fall for?

Besides, yes, very many of the Cloud/Seph fics out there are pre-crazy town, aka Nibelheim.

Several others love to play on the darker side of a twisted tale, where the intense hatred is not much more then a driving lust for the enemy.

They really are very interesting though, I think. =)

Guarantee my sanity post-read, and I just might.

1. "Incidental ignorance" is different from "intentional ignorance." Many of these authors DO realize the real problems involved. They just choose not to address it. The few that just haven't been able to deal with it often make up for it with a palpable skill. It's hard to explain.

I think I get what you mean. Still, I won't give up that it's perfectly okay to write snippets- it's certainly accepted by the FFnet society, at large.

2. Writing the whole plot's not the problem; the problem is just that if it goes TOO far from the original, then it's... jarring. You could write a story where Tifa and Vincent are together and he's no longer immortal, but go to the point where they've got kids, and that'd be going a bit TOO far ahead. It's too far of a step forward.

Fics where they've reproduced as the main pairing sorta sickens me. 'Specially when the kids go on to have awesome amazing adventures with their super strong powers. THE'RE STILL OC'S GUYZZZ. So, agreement?

Seph/Cloud stories, too, would have to deal with this. A one-shot from a bit after Seph's revival dealing with them working things out wouldn't be so bad (it'd be hard reading for me, but it wouldn't be bad), but write a story where they're married and have mpreg kids and whatnot...

Same here, Mpreg gets a little ick for me, but I do like the more quirky day-to-day life fics- Bjanik's 'The Scenic Route' is one in particular that I'm very fond of. Anything too Anne-of-Green-gables happy perfect life on the eco-farm with Zack a few houses away and Cloud constantly wearing an apron...? No.

3. I know I'm one of the few that get really anal about all this. Oh, well, what can I say, at the end of the day, honey, I'm still a guy. (Mooched off of Brad Paisley's song.)

I'll concede that we're all allowed our little vices and other things that make us ** bricks.

And oh, does that annoy me. The worst part is when they start spouting broken and heavily-accented Japanese phrases in public like they're experts at the language or something... it grinds my gears like nothing else.

The other day I stopped reading a songfic because the song was in japanese... the whole frikkin song, broken up into four-line clusters within the fic whilst the author made the characters think about how this song reflected their lives or some junk like that. Yes, a lot of the people who play games like FFVII enjoy japanese culture. Yes, most of the people who watched AC watch anime. THAT DOES NOT MEAN WE SPEAK/READ/CARE ABOUT JAPANESE SONGS. I listen to some japanese songs myself, but... you know, it just sounds good. Hell if I know what they're saying. So, it seems at least there's someone else that can't stand that bull...

Answer: I had several assignments that had priority.

Y' used my very words! Ah'll sue, Ah say!

And again, reply took ages because of school, and laziness in general. Apologies.

Guaranteed. Hopefully.

Still, I won't give up that it's perfectly okay to write snippets- it's certainly accepted by the FFnet society, at large.

Oh, certainly. Hell, I've written many a one-shot myself. I just like to have more substance than "They're married and something terrible happens and we're just supposed to be oh so moved by the drama." Granted, that's not all there is out there, but it covers most of what I see.

Fics where they've reproduced as the main pairing sorta sickens me. 'Specially when the kids go on to have awesome amazing adventures with their super strong powers. THE'RE STILL OC'S GUYZZZ. So, agreement?

If it's done well, then I don't have an issue with it. But again, that would have to involve the ability to set up a timeline that fits every character into it. You can't just start at "Cloud and Tifa's twenty-year old son goes on an adventure." First of all, I'd be wondering why Cloud and Tifa don't just do it themselves. Hell, they'd only be in their mid-forties or fifties. That's like... the new twenties now.

I think that's partly the reason why I've only got one real "new generation" fic - it takes a lot of effort to tie all those characters together.

The other day I stopped reading a songfic because the song was in japanese... the whole frikkin song, broken up into four-line clusters within the fic whilst the author made the characters think about how this song reflected their lives or some junk like that. Yes, a lot of the people who play games like FFVII enjoy japanese culture. Yes, most of the people who watched AC watch anime. THAT DOES NOT MEAN WE SPEAK/READ/CARE ABOUT JAPANESE SONGS. I listen to some japanese songs myself, but... you know, it just sounds good. Hell if I know what they're saying. So, it seems at least there's someone else that can't stand that bull...

Did they at least put up translations or anything? If they didn't, then it seems like a bit of a moot point to put the song in there.

That doesn't have to be true. Cloud can be the way he is now and still have a relationship with Sephiroth. The relationship would probably just need for both to bend a little....maybe.

Give me an example. 'Til then, I still say that current Cloud has zero chance of getting with current Sephiroth. There has to be some catalyst for change.

Of course there are fics that go either way for either side of our arguments. The thing is, though, that at least in this pairing, their interactions just leave NO possibility for them to get together. They HATE each other. They tried to kill each other three times already.

If ever they got together, as I've been saying for a while now, there would have to be some catalyst for change in their personalities. It doesn't have to be a big catalyst or a big change, but it has to be something that's at least believable. Them seeing each other on the battlefield and then suddenly start clawing at each other's clothes doesn't make much sense in terms of a story.

If you're gonna do that, you may as well not even bother with the "fan" part of fanfiction.

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