KAJ-NRIG! I'VE GOT IT! I FOUND DEFINITE PROOF THAT SEPH AND CLOUD ARE LUFFIN' EACHOTHER!

http://community.livejournal.com/ffvii_yaoi/667682.html

And, he's a Doct'r 'N everything! Huhuhu.

That's actually pretty spiffy. Thumbs up for that one.

Is what you found a story? If so is it worth reading? I'll read it anyway but just want an opinon. I'm glad you found proof though.

No story, no proof, either, but it was funny, either way. Check it out.

Crimsondeathhurts why didn't you just go to the link instead of asking what it was? I don't understand it, I would have warned you if it was NSFW or something!

Kaj-Nrig- TOTALLY LEGIT EY. Hurhurhur. Sorry my replies to your awesome argument kinda petered out, but we ended up just repeating everything anyway :D. It was fun, tho!

SXC FOREVER BITCHMEZ

I don't know I was stupid that day. I was hyped out on sugar. And I know you woulda warned me. Yea I know. It was fun!

I personally find this couple very hot! Just imagine all the possibilities!

I know!! You can do almost anything with them! It's just so deliciously wonderful :)!!

KAJ-NRIG! I'VE GOT IT! I FOUND DEFINITE PROOF THAT SEPH AND CLOUD ARE LUFFIN' EACHOTHER!

Go to the love calculator they used (http://www.lovecalculator.com/) and put in the names "Cloud" and "Behemoth" o_0

Give me an example. 'Til then, I still say that current Cloud has zero chance of getting with current Sephiroth. There has to be some catalyst for change.

...Sephiroth takes over the world and they have "teh harrd mansexx" until Sephiroth destroys the planet?

...Sephiroth takes over the world and they have "teh harrd mansexx" until Sephiroth destroys the planet?

Gee, that's so funny I forgot to laugh.

...actually, I'm just kidding. Laughs for real.

;)

On a serious note, though:

I personally find this couple very hot! Just imagine all the possibilities!

and

I know!! You can do almost anything with them! It's just so deliciously wonderful :)!!

Yeah, because seeing two effeminate guys buttsex each other is just so hot.

...but now I'm just being mean. For rlz, then: Is this pairing just another one of those female secrets that us guys won't ever be privy to? Because I still can't see how these two would ever, in any possible way, become a believable couple.

For rlz, then: Is this pairing just another one of those female secrets that us guys won't ever be privy to? Because I still can't see how these two would ever, in any possible way, become a believable couple.

1) Well, first off, they're pretty. That probably attracts yaoi fans to the pairing.

2) Second, they're rivals. Regardless of the fact that they're actually trying to kill each other, this probably attracts yaoi fans to the pairing. (See: Goku/Vegeta, Squall/Seifer, Naruto/Sasuke, Chris/Wesker, Harry/Draco....The list goes on). Who knows? Maybe it's the bad boy/good girl...boy...Effect. After all, in most cases, one of the rivals will be "good" and the other "bad." Of course, this can work for any pairing, slash or not.

Anyway, if we deviate from canon at or before the Nibelheim Incident (Something happens preventing Sephiroth from going nuts, they meet beforehand, etc, etc.), then I could see the pairing working out. But after that...Like I said, it would probably involve the Jenova Card (In which case the problem is finding a way to write it well. It would take a [b]lot[/b] of time for someone to get over what he did, or even just stop being afraid of him/cautious around him), or it would be a rather twisted relationship, what with Sephiroth being...Well, Sephiroth. But either way, there's going to be a pretty big deviation from canon somewhere.

...nyargh... I don't really feel like arguing those points, because I argued them all before, so... yeah, I'm gonna have to pass on that. Thanks for the offer, though.

Meh, okay.

....Anyway, SxC ain't gonna happen. It's all about Sephiroth/Genesis/Angeal. That's where the action's at. Remember, they used to go "fool around" in the training room when the Seconds were out.

q ...nyargh... I don't really feel like arguing those points, because I argued them all before, so... yeah, I'm gonna have to pass on that. Thanks for the offer, though. /q

Feminine secrets. FEMININE SECRETS!

Nah, Kaj-Nrig, I think a bit part of the lure of SxC is the unexplainable thrill that a fangirl/boi gets with the two people she/he ships gets together, and she/he feels that all is right in the world.

It's a developed taste of what a person believes is 'right' or 'wrong' in pairings- although Cloti and Cloris fight all the time about who is canon, we know ours wouldn't be totally canon, but it still makes us very very happy. (And we can read a -lot- of subtext into the original text- for instance, I'm playing crisis core right now, and every second line someone says can be linked to teh gay)

A new chapter of a fic I love can keep me in a good mood for days :D. It's silly to get into endless arguments over right/wrong, when it's just a game and the fans are doing what they love.

Anyway, my 'pinion, thatzall. You've all heard it a million times.

Okay, I forgot the quote HTML. Pretend that's an actual quote at the top there. Kthanxbai.

I think THEY'RE ALL GAY

EVERYONE.

The stork brings babies.

Your MOM brings babies.

Y'know, since we're on that late-night rush...

But that above is actually true. Figure that.

That My mum brings babies? She's a little old for that.

One of the things that bugs me about some yaoi fics : FFVII and KH2 universes is that in a generic setting like a school, the writers will make ALL the pairings gay. ALL OF THEM. And, the girls (of which there aren't many) are either jealous ex's, or the only het pairings.

Yes, most of the characters act like flaming homofags. But it still annoys me when practically every character is gay. There aren't that many gay people compared to straight people!

Silly pet peeve there. It's either sacrifice a pairing you like to keep status quo to a relative, or make things seem unbalanced.

And the only reason there's so many yaoi pairings in the first place is because the author wants to make as many shippers happy as possible, by chucking as many pairings as possible. AND IT WORKS. But it still annoys me, to see them blatantly fishing for readers! AND I DON'T LIKE BEING ANNOYED BY THESE TYPE OF SILLY THINGS! Because I'd prolly write it myself if i was a little younger!

Late-night rants whoo. Thoughts?

That My mum brings babies? She's a little old for that.

DID bring babies, then. Better or no?

in a generic setting like a school, the writers will make ALL the pairings gay.

1. You should know that all school fics are inevitably going to invite that certain thing known as suck-dom into their midst.

2. Writers make all pairings gay even in the canon universe. Don't you know that Ron and Harry are butt buddies and that Draco is both of their illegitimate lovers, and Snape and Dumbledore are actually banging each other (which might actually be true, I heard somewhere that Ms. Rowling confirmed Dumbledore's crookedness), and Hermione and Ginny are lesbots? Actually, that last one might be kinky, because the chick that plays Hermione is HAWT. For rlz.

There aren't that many gay people compared to straight people!

I dunno... maybe we're all just still in the closet about this. I remember someone somewhere saying that everybody was instinctively gay. Right...

And the only reason there's so many yaoi pairings in the first place is because the author wants to make as many shippers happy as possible, by chucking as many pairings as possible. AND IT WORKS. But it still annoys me, to see them blatantly fishing for readers! AND I DON'T LIKE BEING ANNOYED BY THESE TYPE OF SILLY THINGS! Because I'd prolly write it myself if i was a little younger!

The only reason it works is because people are fickle and, unfortunately, hormone-raging teens. And usually female, the way I hear it. No narc on you.

I do my part to fight it by just not stating who the pairings are. It makes it that much easier to find out who the GOOD readers are in this site... who usually turn out to be good writers, as well.

But it's all a growing pain, I say. Nothing wrong with letting someone grow out of things. When they're twenty- or thirty-sumthin' and still writing that drivel, then THAT'S an issue.

Yeah, Dumbleydore is a gaylord. It's official. Good on 'Im.

Neways, it's nothing we haven't discussed before. Jeez, I just keep rehashing previous arguments, don't I? I'll go cry in the corner.

'Sall good. Periodic bitchings are always good.

YAH!

1. You should know that all school fics are inevitably going to invite that certain thing known as suck-dom into their midst.

I don't know if I'd say all school fics invite suck-dom, just...Most. They seem to invite it more than most of the fic genres though.

...This is Vin, btw. I'm just feeling too lazy to switch to my normal posting account.

Okaaay, I have to ask.

What is it you get out of having two accounts? I mean, If you're not planning on flaming people with one or anything?

Hope this doesn't sound accusing or anything, I'm just really curious :D

Y'know, that's a good question. I suppose it might be because I generally used one for posting (VinCon01) and recently startd using one for my writing. I'll admit that this was probably partially out of being new to writing, and not having much confidence to go with it, but it was also partially to avoid bias from people who I've argued with/against on forums. Most people probably wouldn't care who it came from, but I was stuck in the mindset of "Avoid positive/negative bias" when I first started.

Of course, I've ditched that mindset since then, but hey, the account/stories are already there, so there's not really any point in shifting everything around.

Fairenough then. I myself am adverse to several accounts/changing account names (I hate my account name now) because people may not be able to find me (Don't know if anyone'd care, but when I get on a writer I really like I like to know that i've read all of theirs that I can, and it's not scattered in other places)

However, bias is a good reason (even though I just accidentally outed you). I myself have considered getting a second account for reviewing very poor fics- once I left a negative review (polite, constructive), and the girl replied saying OMGZ FLAME and posted on her account that she recieved a flame boohoo. I mean, what if she, or someone who was rubbed the wrong way on a forum, chose to act against you? It's a scary thought sometimes.

Thanks for bothering replying to me, you've given me something to think about, and now I should probabally stop taking this forum off topic *cough*. whoops.

I myself have considered getting a second account for reviewing very poor fics- once I left a negative review (polite, constructive), and the girl replied saying OMGZ FLAME and posted on her account that she recieved a flame boohoo. I mean, what if she, or someone who was rubbed the wrong way on a forum, chose to act against you? It's a scary thought sometimes.

So you thought about creating a new account solely because some random girl was POed about your comments. C'mon, if she couldn't take it, then there wasn't any reason for her to post in the first place.

Me, I've flamed more than my fair share of people. I sort of figure that if they're gonna write that bad, then I don't need to worry about any sort of retaliation they've got, because it sure can't be any more organized than their stories are.

No, I created an account because she could have reported me and then maybe gotten me banned, I assume. No-one I know has gotten the banhammer so I don't know how that works, but I still don't want to risk it, when I value my place on FFnet and without my account there'd be no way for me to know who I've got alerts for. In all, it'd be both upsetting and a big hassle for me if I lost my account- even if that's not a worthy charge for banning someone (after all, what's the point of having reviews if negative crit is discouraged?), I am not comfortable risking it.

I'm sorry you assumed that I'd do it to hide from some ** off fanthing. I thought you had a fair judge of my character so far, and I hope you can now cross off 'can't take the heat' from that list.

Flame, or contructive crit? I'm not very receptive to flamers, but believe crit should be welcomed by all. But after all, a fair share of the writers on this site are preteen and a little older, and wouldn't have the capacity to write something expected from someone older, or the ability to properly compare and contrast theirs against others and realise that theirs is quite badly written. That's where crit can help, and flame can damage any chances of improvement.

I'm sorry you assumed that I'd do it to hide from some ** off fanthing. I thought you had a fair judge of my character so far, and I hope you can now cross off 'can't take the heat' from that list.

I don't presume to know, so I was going off of what was said. I don't really keep track of who I'm talking to, either, so... yeah... if you were offended, it wasn't intentional.

Still, though. The reporting system here is so out of whack that it doesn't even seem to work. There are plenty of genuine idiots that deserve banning, and have been reported for banning, but have not been banned. It's something I personally get irritated of, because... there are just so many idiots here. I'm sure you know what I mean.

Flame, or contructive crit?

Y'see, the thing is that I'm not really sure myself. And I personally don't really care. I'll say what I think about a story, and if the person sees it as a flame, then they see it as a flame. I tend to try to keep things within the realm of constructive criticism, but there are moments when the criticism is very strong. So if I seem like a flamer, then I probably am. Subjectivity and all that stuff.

after all, a fair share of the writers on this site are preteen and a little older, and wouldn't have the capacity to write something expected from someone older

Of course not. I wouldn't expect them to. However, there are the relatively large amount that just... suck, I suppose. I have all the respect in the world for someone who's young and wants to improve, but if it's someone young and who thinks s/he's hot **, then I don't really feel bad if I somehow shoot 'em down.

If you want, here's some of my recent [excerpts from] criticism. Judge for yourself:

Given that it's your first FFVII, I'm surprised you would go for something as ambitious as this. You should reconsider creating two new characters. Kayla Clowstrike, besides having a cockamamie name (though it isn't that bad), seems to be either a Mary Sue or a self-insert. That by itself is starting to push it. The self-insertion is more plausible as she is, quite literally, inserted into the events of the movie, which is usually always a bad idea. The fact that she's feisty and whatnot and they don't kill her outright is also testament to the Mary Sue/self-insert. Your treatment of the other characters also needs work. It's obvious that you just want to pair up with Yazoo, and that you think very little of Loz. Which isn't wrong in and of itself, but you should at least try to add more to their characters than simply "I don't like him so I'll make him fugly." That part was the most annoying. (Then again, the movie doesn't do much to enhance their characters anyway, so I s'pose you've got more freedom.) That said, your perspective is good. Telling the perspective from her point of view does help to establish her character a bit more. Still, I don't think you would do very well to start out by writing a self-insert/Mary Sue story like this. Start with the core characters, maybe, and then work your character in once you feel like you can handle it well.

The other stuff - the plot, the description, the grammar, that stuff - needs some serious work. I'd suggest you go and ask one of the Beta Readers for some help. There are quite a lot in the FFVII section, I believe. Or you could ask a teacher or someone. It'll help you learn about grammar and sentence structure and whatnot. This Wolf girl... I'd say that she's a blatant Mary Sue, but that'd be pushing it. She does have Mary Sue qualities, but I'm not too sure on that just yet. Her name is irritatingly stupid, though - but seeing as her "brother" happens to be named Cloud, I wouldn't put it past her parents. So... you need a proofreader. That's the biggest thing you can do to make this story good.

This is why I hate these stories. First of all, you butcher their characters. Second of all, you turn these butchered characters into squealing little girls. (Which is kind of admirable, in a way; changing a group of guys into girls... It takes a bit of skill.) Third of all, you don't give three ** about characterization or storyline or anything; you just want to see the two you think are hottest bang each other up the rear. That said, though, the writing itself isn't that bad. Sure, you destroyed their characters. Sure, you could've named them anything and the story'd be essentially the same. Sure, that opening scene with "Yazoo" squeezing the pillow and them all gathered in a circle is completely feminine. But that doesn't stop the writing and grammar from being more or less constant. I'd say that if you just thought about things a bit more, you could definitely do a better job keeping these characters in character.

And yeah...

When it comes to alternate accounts, I was basically with scarlettHuntress on that. It was mostly about the fact that, while I'd hope most people wouldn't be that petty, I've run into some people on message boards/reviews that really seem to hold a grudge. And I'm not familiar with the modding/banning system here (Haven't been modded, don't know anyone who has), so I can be a bit paranoid. Anyway, doesn't matter much anymore. I stopped really "hiding" the fact that I had two accounts (It could be pretty obvious sometimes though, if you knew me well enough) a while back.

On the subject of flames vs. constructive criticism, for me it really depends on the situation. I mean, I'm nineteen, so I've been through/seen a lot of the whole "Young and new to writing" thing. That doesn't bother me, and I'm fine with being less harsh on people who seem to be young, new to writing, and that sort of thing (Heck, I only actually started writing and posting my fics a little while back). I'm cool with that. Heck, they might be really good writers if you give them enough time. What bothers me is when they seem to be like that, but refuse to take any advice you give them, and basically throw a tantrum when you so much as say "I think this could use some improvement." Especially when they ask you to review their fic. I mean ***, if you want me to review a story, then don't get angry when I review the freaking story. "Review" doesn't mean "Heaping praise on your story as if it was the greatest thing ever written." You can do that in a review, but you shouldn't just expect that to be the only thing you receive.

Basically, it doesn't bother me for someone to be young or new to writing, and have it show through. What bothers me is when they're like that, but seem to think that they're god's gift to the written word, and act like children throwing temper tantrums when you try to give them advice. Especially if you really were being polite and giving them constructive criticism.

Especially if you really were being polite and giving them constructive criticism.

Who's to say what's constructive criticism and what's flaming, though? There are obvious differences in opinion. Something where you say you dislike something, and you say it in a well-written manner, doesn't mean it's not a flame. It also doesn't mean it's constructive criticism. In a way, it's much like a story: Your intent is overwritten or enhanced by the reader's perception. Perception defines reality and all that.

Still, though. The reporting system here is so out of whack that it doesn't even seem to work. There are plenty of genuine idiots that deserve banning, and have been reported for banning, but have not been banned. It's something I personally get irritated of, because... there are just so many idiots here. I'm sure you know what I mean.

Yup. Considering the people on here, it's not suprising, really. I was reading a fic a week or two ago when I found something I had read in another fic, word for word- exept she had changed the names of the people in the scenario to make it 'original'. When I asked her, she said it was hers- that many people could have the same idea (word for word?). The other author (whom I believed the writer of the original, as the rest of her fic was written in that style, and I had found a different scenario from a KH fic featuring the org.13 I had read several months ago in the fic of the girl I had believed to be the copier, and those parts were written differently to the rest) told me that yes, this was hers, even down to the spelling mistake. She also contacted the writer, and the piece promptly dissapeared, without anything in the a/n about it or anything.

Irrelevant? My point is I think it is so damn stupid anyone would do this! I mean, what would gain from that? People appreciating something that you didn't make? And if it becomes popular, then the chances of the original author hearing of it is far higher. People are idiots. These type of idiots also can't accept crit, and like to flame. Or something. I just wrote that and it seems a very sweeping statement, but I hope you understand what I mean.

The reviews sound fair enough to me. I mean, you seem to be initially harsh and then point out the better parts (I read an article about 'How to Review' where they recommended pointing out the good points (or just using some sweeping statement like 'It's cute but...' or 'You have a good idea here but...' before really getting into it, but somehow I can't imagine you giving comments like that when you don't mean it. I only really do it to be nice) but these fics sound pretty horrible. Heck, It's not like I'm a great writer or something (One of my first fics featured 'me' in it, bleegh.), but it's better if these people know their fics are cra- uhh, not quite as polished as they could be... perhaps?

And to Venath now, as I cbf replying twice (Does it seem to you two we're the only ones on this thread anymore? I wonder if the forum mod's fine with our little tangent here)

And I'm not familiar with the modding/banning system here

Who is? However, I was reading the FFnet wiki entry today: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FanFiction.Net, and if you go down to the last few paras it really sounds like there's no chance of you getting banned, even if little fanbrats get angry, which is nice.

mean, I'm nineteen, so I've been through/seen a lot of the whole "Young and new to writing" thing.

Ditto. I joined when I was thirteen (seventeen now), and I have pretty differed tastes to what I have now- and certainly I'd like to hope my writing's matured. I mentioned earlier I'd done the travesty of inserting myself into a fic, but apart from that I'm pretty happy with everything else I have up, considering what ages I wrote them at.

What bothers me is when they seem to be like that, but refuse to take any advice you give them, and basically throw a tantrum when you so much as say "I think this could use some improvement." Especially when they ask you to review their fic. I mean ***, if you want me to review a story, then don't get angry when I review the freaking story. "Review" doesn't mean "Heaping praise on your story as if it was the greatest thing ever written." You can do that in a review, but you shouldn't just expect that to be the only thing you receive.

Ohgods. My friend's into the HP fandom- a fic of hers is pretty popular among DracoxGinny shippers, and one such fanbrat asked her to review her fic. The friend did so, carefully, and linked it to me. It was basically a horribly characterized mess of a fic with no hint of anything even resembling a backbone. Because my friend was a 'hero' of hers, she was nice, but I was a little less lenient. She's the person who thought I was a flamer, above. They don't seem to recognize that the internet is a public forum, and FFnet will expose you to people who will tell you how crap you are, suck it up and lurk moar, little girl. As for praise-heaping- I do so love constructive crit! I think there should be more people willing to crit around this site. I always try to put some crit (I also think it's as important to point out things you liked as things you disliked, but maybe that's just me.) into every review. However, sometimes you're lazy/can't think of anything, and it's just praiseheaping (there are only so many generic phrases you can use to show your support before you feel corny, though). As a writer, I know how good even a simple praise!review can make you feel, but don't you find that helpful/constructivecrit!reviews are just that much better? I don't know why more people don't invite crit. On the art site, Deviantart, there's an option where after posting a pic you can select (off the top of my head) from 'commenting off', 'criticism discouraged', normal commenting and then 'criticism enouraged'. Why don't people not happy to get crit just say so at the bottom of chapters?

And R&R in fic summaries- according to dictionary dot cawm, 'a critical article or report, as in a periodical, on a book, play, recital, or the like; critique; evaluation.' a review is. So these people are inviting crit. commentary, which I approve :D.

Do you think there should be more people saying what they want to say in fics without blatant bashing/total flaming, and more encouragement for this?

And how I classify flames: Extremely impolite, OFTEN USES CAPS OR /\/\4Y-B even L337 (Yeah, I got lazy there.), ignores putting in anything 'constructive'.

Cons.Crit should be polite, and whilst adressing the fic's bad points should attempt to find at least one good point. They could also suggest a way of improving (Kaj-nrig's suggestion of a beta-reader for the bad fics he read is pretty helpful. and when'd that beta thing pop up on the site, anyways? I have a beta I contact via email, but it's pretty handy they're making this on FFnet)

Anyway, a lot of this is just my ramblings, sorry guys. Also, out of interest I just checked my profile and I've signed 1267 reviews. Holy cow. Is this normal?

And how I classify flames: Extremely impolite, OFTEN USES CAPS OR /\/\4Y-B even L337 (Yeah, I got lazy there.), ignores putting in anything 'constructive'.

Well, then something like "omg u shuld put him-and-her together!" would be considered a flame? The person isn't being very polite - very pushy, actually - and while s/he doesn't use caps, there's still chat-speak rampant, and there's nothing constructive. But most people would see that as a good review. See where I'm going with this? Everybody's going to construe a flame/review as a review/flame.

I don't often have much of an issue with someone thinking my reviews are flames. It seems like the teen petulance is a part of growing up. Seems awfully natural.

Cons.Crit should be polite, and whilst adressing the fic's bad points should attempt to find at least one good point. They could also suggest a way of improving (Kaj-nrig's suggestion of a beta-reader for the bad fics he read is pretty helpful. and when'd that beta thing pop up on the site, anyways? I have a beta I contact via email, but it's pretty handy they're making this on FFnet)

Polite? I'm not too sure about that. Being honest often means you eschew the rules of politeness in favor of plain honesty. If it turns out to be polite, then that's fine. If it turns out to be offensive, then that's also fine with me.

Ohgods. My friend's into the HP fandom

That was her first mistake. (Har har.)

"omg u shuld put him-and-her together!" would be considered a flame?

Naah, that's just someone being a ** retard, as well as rude and completely ignoring anything that could be considered reviewing. But if you review, then mention at the end you've been wondering if you were hinting towards pairing A in the fic, or hint that you like that pairing wink wink nudge nudge. But if you're writing a fic and you know the plot, why're you gonna stuff all that up just because someone said they wanted pairing A?

The person isn't being very polite - very pushy, actually -

Ohwhoops forgot to read this. Yeah. Ho hum.

and while s/he doesn't use caps, there's still chat-speak rampant, and there's nothing constructive.

Not all reviews need to be constructive. I think I mentioned earlier I try to be constructive in every review, but sometimes you just don't have anything to say. 'I like this' makes you feel good to read, but if someone says 'Omgz, I leik this muchly :D:D:D plz continue soon lol!' is still going to make you feel good.

I... I don't want to say this (it makes me feel icky) but I guess it's just their way of expressing themselves.

Polite? I'm not too sure about that. Being honest often means you eschew the rules of politeness in favor of plain honesty. If it turns out to be polite, then that's fine. If it turns out to be offensive, then that's also fine with me.

I think criticism should avoid being offensive. It looses validity in my eyes, but that's just my opinion isn't it. I would feel much more receptive to a polite criticism than a plain rude one, but I would still attempt to take the latter onboard. It's not too hard to be nice, is it?

That was her first mistake. (Har har.)

Lolz omg thaz so funni!!!! im gonna tell all my bffs now thanx bai :D:D:DD:D:dgodfkgotr!!!EVLeVENTEEN!!!! none reads harri potta lolz, twilight is so much more mature :D:D:D

(I've been reading lots of Twilight wank lately, hehe)

There are some things i see that could add up into them being together before Seph went insane.

1.) Cloud's heroworship of him. he was the reason Cloud joined SOLDIER in the first place.

2.) Sephiroth would've probably been happy that he had someone to care for. he always seemed lonely and a bit sad in some of the Crisis Core scenes.

3.) No man can have hair that pretty and be COMPLETELY straight. its just not happening

4.) need i remind you that Cloud can dress up as a girl and fool everyone?

However that was before he went crazy afterwards...no not happening.

He's become a sadistic madman! And Cloud hates him.

He killed everyone in Cloud's hometown then burned it to the ground! No amount of love can overcome this.

Though it wouldn't surprise me if he raped Cloud during the game to "further break his spirit".

And if their not AU or high school fics 95% off Seph/Cloud stories are Rape Fics!

The only thing i hate worst is when the bash Tifa and Aerith in these stories. That's just immature man.

I agree with the list that states how sephiroth and cloud are able to be together. When I think about it you're right when you say that 95% of the seph/cloud fics are rape if they aren't AU or high school fics. I never realy thought about it until now so....yeah. I'm no fan of Tifa or Aerith but some of the bashing can be immature.

Well, I guess being back on topic would help.

I'll freely admit that I hated the Sephiroth/Cloud pairing. Even when playing the game. I couldn't see Cloud with Tifa or Aeris (or Yuffie, Cid, Vincent or Barret for that matter) and so I just didn't bother with the fandom. The Zack/Cloud pairing feels kind of incestuous to me as the Cloud we know for most of the game is 'Zack' and it's kind of like Cloud falling in love with himself (plus the original game didn't show us enough of Zack for me to be that truly interested in him).

I played Kingdom Hearts and became a rabid Leon/Cloud shipper. Although Sephiroth was there, for some reason I resented his characterisation (may have something to do with his voice in the game... and him being so goddamn difficult).

I watched Advent Children. I still didn't see the pairing. I saw some very nice fight scenes, but no chemistry.

Then I started to play Crisis Core and began to realise that Sephiroth is a slightly better character than I had originally thought. I wanted to see what fandom had done with him and, for the most part, that meant indulging in Sephiroth/Cloud (and a little Sephiroth/Aeris). I had to say that I was actually surprised by the level that some people went into in making their relationship work (A Long Hard Road for example here).

I'm the kind of fan who will happily sit through the angsty fics where they slowly build their relationship, the somewhat easier going fics set before Nibelheim (generally I like the ones that completely ignore CC canon though) and the straight forward master/puppet ones that are around (mainly because it's actually believable).

Can I justify this pairing? Not really. The only bit of evidence that they're linked in anyway way beyond trying to kill each other comes from Kingdom Hearts, where it's revealed that Sephiroth doesn't die because Cloud's heart (or the darkness in it rather) keeps calling him back. There's probably more evidence for Nanaki/Cait Sith than there is for this pairing. But it's so interesting nonetheless. They're rivals, there's hero-worship that's been twisted into loathing, there is the fact they're both fairly good looking... And the fact that I'm certain that Sephiroth wears lip gloss in Advent Children XD

Still, it's the only pairing in FFVII that managed to capture my attention so... I guess in some ways, there must be something to it that calls to slash fans beyond just "OMG KAWAII THEY R SO HOTTTTTT!". Or maybe at least those of us who are old enough to remember it being released originally and haven't just hopped on the AC train...

I'm replying with the being polite in Cons.Crit. I learned from both my mother and friend phycoticlover04 one can never be polite when speaking the truth because, most often than not the truth hurts. And I consider a flame to be when someone tells you you suck or you should go die based on the pairing you ship. There is this great author called Ashkara, I think she mainly focuses on the Gundam Wing fandom. She has her own site, and as the homepage she has warnings about the things featured on the site with explanations of what yaoi/slash meant, she also had another page which showed that the fics she wrote contained yaoi/sash/boxboy love and het parings, the fics themselves even had warnings for what you woud encounter in them. But the thing that ** me off was that there were people who had read this and still flamed her stating that she was corrupting young minds and that she should burn in hell, there was even someone that flamed her for having a het pairing in one of fics. But I guess she was prepared for this because she actually has a page dedicated to all the flames she recieves.

I could've sworn that I'd posted in here again. Guess not. Anyway, I'll get back on topic in a minute, but...

Who's to say what's constructive criticism and what's flaming, though? There are obvious differences in opinion. Something where you say you dislike something, and you say it in a well-written manner, doesn't mean it's not a flame. It also doesn't mean it's constructive criticism. In a way, it's much like a story: Your intent is overwritten or enhanced by the reader's perception. Perception defines reality and all that.

I'm not all-knowing by any means, but I like to think there's a distinction. Personally, I have a few different levels on a sort of criticism scale:

Flaming: Generally one of the harshest categories, and easily one of the most useless. Basically, I view this as insulting/attacking the author, story, and so on and so forth, but without actually addressing anything relevant. For instance, insulting the author/story/whatever because you don't like the pairing, or because you don't like that genre, or something else that really has nothign to do with actual problems in the story.

Constructive Flaming: Honestly, I think these can be some of the harshest, especially for new users. I view this as still being insulting, as in flames, but actually addressing issues in the story. It's legitimate criticism (Which can be hard to deal with, especially for new writers), but it's legitimate criticism laced with insults. I think FlameRising and his group were actually the best example of this. If you really dissected their "reviews," there actually were legitimate problems and things that you could improve on. The problem is that they generally insulted the living hell out of you while pointing these things out. I've never had this problem myself, and more experience writers have advised me to look for the criticism in them and ignore the flames if I do get them, but I don't imagine new writers will be able to deal with it too well.

Neutral: This...is basically what the name implies. It's not especially positive or negative. Maybe a little positive or negative, but not enough to really make an impact. Some examples would be things like "Interesting" or "I'm curious where you'll go with this" and other things that don't particularly praise your work, but that also don't seem negative.

Praise-heaping: OMG I LUVZ THIS SOOOO MUCH!!!!!!!!! Nearly as useless as flaming, but still not a bad thing. While they don't offer any criticism at all, it's always nice just to hear that someone is enjoying it. I'd like some criticism now and then, but I'm certainly not going to complain about these (Unless they just get out of hand).

Constructive Criticism: Basically, it's constructive flaming without the flaming. They provide advice and suggestions, and they're usually polite or friendly about it. One negative point is that sometimes it can be a little dry/blunt, so it can come off as almost insulting when it's really not designed to be that way.

- Troll/Spam: These aren't actually on the "scale" per se, but it's not even as decent as flaming. It's not criticism, it's not praise, it's not an attack or insult, it's just...there. For example, one person started spam reviewing an author that I'm a fan of, and the posts were basically just the exact same thing over and over multiple times for every chapter (I'm pretty sure I saw at least a dozen of the same review on a single chapter). And this wasn't pleasant or short. It was basically spewing crap until it hit the character limit, and then they made another post doing the exact same thing.

Anyway, to get back on topic:

Can I justify this pairing? Not really. The only bit of evidence that they're linked in anyway way beyond trying to kill each other comes from Kingdom Hearts, where it's revealed that Sephiroth doesn't die because Cloud's heart (or the darkness in it rather) keeps calling him back. There's probably more evidence for Nanaki/Cait Sith than there is for this pairing. But it's so interesting nonetheless. They're rivals, there's hero-worship that's been twisted into loathing, there is the fact they're both fairly good looking... And the fact that I'm certain that Sephiroth wears lip gloss in Advent Children XD

Agreed. There's not really any indication of an attraction in the game, but the nature of their relationship makes the possibilities interesting. Especially if done properly, or in an interesting/unique way.

...But then, I think that can apply to a lot of pairings, regardless of the fandoms/characters.

I've gotten to the point where I don't feel the need to justify my like of the pairing. heck, I don't know if I even could justify it in a way that'd make sense to outsiders. What I know is that the pairing feels good to me, and reading it makes me happy (or sad, if the writer was angling for that). Really, all fanfic is is fanfic, and a way for fans to express their own interpretations and hopes for the original.

Hmm.. ( Over a year later) Basically, theres no real justification for any couple pairing outside of the original story plot. Everything based outside those realms are purely opinion based likings. :P

There are ways to making it work but it is complicated but possible. Such as when he first went to become a soldier it shows he admire him and being as young as he was he could of developed a crush. Anything after would most likely be a hatred/obsession type of love because even though he hates what Sephiroth becomes there is signs of obsession. Throughout ff7 and ac besides aeris his mind always lingered on sephiroth. It clear that even if it animosity he will always that thought of sephiroth. So it can be an obsession/slave/rival type pairing. I believe if sephiroth was a girl instead that SephirothxCloud pairing would have been a better pairing than the AerisxCloudxTifa love triangle. Even as a guy its hot. If SephirothxCloud pairing was a canon i believe it would have been even more interesting and hotter than cloud being paired with one of the girls due to the fact that their enemies. Rival pairings are always hot and never boring

Mm, well said. :]

lol well its true cloud personality to me is to strong for even tifa or aeris to be with he'd only make them sad in the end. sephiroth is the only personality that can suit him (well maybe zack too)

Im not sure if Cloud's personality is all that strong. Tifa has alotta will power. Cloud seems docile most of the time. Except when it comes to his Sephiroth. They seem to bring out a new side of each other. I think its cute in a twisted way. Cloud makes an attractive victim, Seph makes an attractive victimizer. Watch FF7 Advent Children Complete. The extended fight scene between the two of them shows his sadistic side more.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y4Wkc3bU6ds

I feel I have to respond, if for no other reason than to give Seph/Cloud a legitimate excuse to be.

Such as when he first went to become a soldier it shows he admire him and being as young as he was he could of developed a crush.

The problem there, of course, is that he goes off to join SOLDIER only because he wants to impress Tifa. Which tells you that there are preexisting feelings that would certainly get in the way of any sort of romantic interest in a commanding officer. And the fact that these preexisting feelings are for a girl would also tell you that Cloud just doesn't swing that way.

If someone decides to go that route - and, granted, many do - then they have to (but often don't) take into account the fact that Cloud is ALREADY crushing on someone, AND it's a female. As anyone will tell you, it takes a LOT of effort to go from straight to gay. Or vice versa, for that matter.

Anything after would most likely be a hatred/obsession type of love because even though he hates what Sephiroth becomes there is signs of obsession.

Throughout ff7 and ac besides aeris his mind always lingered on sephiroth.

Well, let me see here... his childhood hero was Sephiroth, his childhood betrayer was Sephiroth, his hometown's murderer was Sephiroth, his Planet-threatening entity was Sephiroth, his prospective lover's killer was Sephiroth... there were a lot of reasons for his thoughts "lingering" on Sephiroth. Sephiroth played a big role in his life. That in itself is not a sign of romance. Or even obsession. You (I'm assuming) have lived with your parents your whole life - or at least the first eighteen years of it. Does that mean that you wish to sleep with them? No.

...all of which isn't even taking into account the fact that what he is "obsessed" and "lingering" over isn't even Sephiroth. What he obsessed about in the movie was his guilt. His guilt over letting Aerith die, letting Zack die, letting his entire hometown - save for Tifa - die. For not being able to protect those he loves most. You'll notice that Cloud only remembers Sephiroth when he has bouts of pain from Geostigma. Hardly a sign of obsession.

Also, hatred and obsession are very different from love, and very different from each other. You can certainly experience all three for a person, but that does not mean that they are interchangeable.

Rival pairings are always hot and never boring

This seems to be the only legitimate reason for anyone wanting to write a story about Cloud and Sephiroth getting together - because they find it hot and never boring. That's more or less what it comes down to. There's no other reason than that. To try and say that "Oh, Cloud is obsessed with Sephiroth" or "Cloud could have had a crush on Sephiroth" is just disguising the fact that you just think it's hot.

Nothing wrong with that.

well its true cloud personality to me is to strong for even tifa or aeris to be with he'd only make them sad in the end. sephiroth is the only personality that can suit him (well maybe zack too)

There's a big difference between camaraderie and true companionship. Tifa, for instance, serves as a perfect counterbalance to Cloud. She's patient with him to the point where she doubts herself. She's willing to give him a stern (but not constant, which makes it even more worthwhile) reprimand when he needs it. She fits his personality because she doesn't try to overpower it; she allows it to stand for itself, and she MAKES it stand for itself.

Zack and Sephiroth, even if they were to get into a relationship with him, would have too much of an "overpowering" personality. Zack, especially. I mean, just look at what he does to Cloud. He forces his entire life onto Cloud and forces him to live out both of their lives.

Cloud makes an attractive victim, Seph makes an attractive victimizer. Watch FF7 Advent Children Complete. The extended fight scene between the two of them shows his sadistic side more.

Seke and ume, no doubt.

Which is STUPID. The whole concept of "the docile" and "the strong" is as much a slap to the face of homosexuals as writing two canonically gay characters - such as Touya Kinomoto and Yukito Tsukishiro from Cardcaptor Sakura - as straight men.

It's ridiculous to base a "romance" on simply whether or not the two persons involved fulfill the "victim/victimizer" roles. If you're REALLY going to write about two men, much less two sworn rivals, being in a relationship, you should treat it with more care than that.

And that fight scene showed 1.) the magnitude of Sephiroth's brutality, and 2.) Cloud's ability to overcome any sort of hardship, even a dozen stab wounds or so.

Seeing as how this thread is supposed to be about "what works and what doesn't" regarding the YAOI COUPLE of SephirothxCloud, none of those reasons (I'd call them excuses) work, because they do not support the YAOI COUPLE of SephirothxCloud. They support a victim/victimizer relationship. Or, in the case of "Cloud crushing on Seph," a awestruck/awesome relationship. Unless, of course, one manages to steer Cloud away from being both heterosexual and heterosexual for Tifa (who is, in case you forgot, incredibly good at making men heterosexual).

That second option is, seriously, the ONLY way that a Seph/Cloud YAOI COUPLE would be even feasibly possible. The whole obsession/fixation/victim(izer) thing is less a YAOI COUPLE and more a sexual fetish. You should recognize that.

"The problem there, of course, is that he goes off to join SOLDIER only because he wants to impress Tifa. Which tells you that there are preexisting feelings that would certainly get in the way of any sort of romantic interest in a commanding officer. And the fact that these preexisting feelings are for a girl would also tell you that Cloud just doesn't swing that way."

You make some very valid and interesting points. But I find your views on a few things to be slightly off. As you stated above, Cloud did not necessarily join SOLDIER to impress Tifa. As stated in the game Cloud joins SOLDIER to become a "Hero" like Sephiroth. The fact he avoided Tifa when he returned home on his last mission was because he was ashamed he was not able to keep his word. Another thing I disagree upon is the fact he has a crush on Tifa means he doesnt "swing that way". Not true, per say. Because one has feelings for a girl, does not mean they cannot develop feelings for anyone else. And it certainly does not mean he cannot develop feelings for a man as well. Thus bisexuality was discovered. lol.

"Zack and Sephiroth, even if they were to get into a relationship with him, would have too much of an "overpowering" personality. Zack, especially. I mean, just look at what he does to Cloud. He forces his entire life onto Cloud and forces him to live out both of their lives."

I thought this was funny, lol. Zack does lay the burden of carrying his legacy on Cloud. But I think Cloud was okay with this. If not, certainly there wasn't anything there to force him to. He could have easily walked away and tried his best to pick up the pieces of his life. Cloud chose to accept his fate, for the memory of his friend. Well.. at least in my opinion. =]

"Seke and ume, no doubt.

Which is STUPID. The whole concept of "the docile" and "the strong" is as much a slap to the face of homosexuals as writing two canonically gay characters - such as Touya Kinomoto and Yukito Tsukishiro from Cardcaptor Sakura - as straight men.

It's ridiculous to base a "romance" on simply whether or not the two persons involved fulfill the "victim/victimizer" roles. If you're REALLY going to write about two men, much less two sworn rivals, being in a relationship, you should treat it with more care than that.

And that fight scene showed 1.) the magnitude of Sephiroth's brutality, and 2.) Cloud's ability to overcome any sort of hardship, even a dozen stab wounds or so.

Seeing as how this thread is supposed to be about "what works and what doesn't" regarding the YAOI COUPLE of SephirothxCloud, none of those reasons (I'd call them excuses) work, because they do not support the YAOI COUPLE of SephirothxCloud. They support a victim/victimizer relationship. Or, in the case of "Cloud crushing on Seph," a awestruck/awesome relationship. Unless, of course, one manages to steer Cloud away from being both heterosexual and heterosexual for Tifa (who is, in case you forgot, incredibly good at making men heterosexual).

That second option is, seriously, the ONLY way that a Seph/Cloud YAOI COUPLE would be even feasibly possible. The whole obsession/fixation/victim(izer) thing is less a YAOI COUPLE and more a sexual fetish. You should recognize that."

Uke and Seme are indeed roles we assign guys in the yaoi stories we write. As well do these roles, dominant and submissive, work in hetero relationships as well. To say its a slap in the face to homosexuals is a bit extreme for it would have to be a slap in any sexual orientation's face. Since we are labeling people.

Lets look at the true meaning of yaoi. Yaoi is basically only gay sex. And just that. Not necessarily romance. Thats more so Shounen-ai. True victim/victimizer is moreso a fetish than shounen-ai, but in the world of sex it stands pretty tall. BDSM as an example.

We cannot assume Cloud is heterosexual and especially only for Tifa when there hasn't been stated so. Nor can we legitimately say Cloud has a thing for Sephiroth or vice versa. What I think has happened here is we all have forgotten what "Fanfiction" is. It's fiction. It doesnt have to be proven with facts and quotes all the time, but it is certainly fun to imagine and dream. We all have our opinions on things, and what it boils down to.. it's the writer's right to express their imagination as they see fit.

You make some very valid and interesting points. But I find your views on a few things to be slightly off.

And I find YOUR VIEWS TO BE INSULTI- Nah, I'm just kidding. Just wanted to start up SOME kind of debate so that it doesn't turn into a thoughtless "they belongz togetherz" thing. Not that you guys were thoughtless, just that it was starting to become one-sided.

As you stated above, Cloud did not necessarily join SOLDIER to impress Tifa. As stated in the game Cloud joins SOLDIER to become a "Hero" like Sephiroth. The fact he avoided Tifa when he returned home on his last mission was because he was ashamed he was not able to keep his word.

Yes, he wanted to become a hero. But he wanted to become a hero because he wanted to impress Tifa. Likewise, when he avoids her, it's because he's not a hero, and he's ashamed that he can't impress her. In the game, when Cloud and Tifa are in the Lifestream:

Cloud: "I thought if I got stronger I could get someone to notice..."

Tifa: "Someone has to notice you...? Who?"

Cloud: "'Who...?' You know who! ...you, that's who."If he's not a hero in his books, then, he also can't keep his promise to her - to protect her when she needs it. Except, of course, he does just that a few days later. Sweet lil' guy.

Another thing I disagree upon is the fact he has a crush on Tifa means he doesnt "swing that way". Not true, per say. Because one has feelings for a girl, does not mean they cannot develop feelings for anyone else. And it certainly does not mean he cannot develop feelings for a man as well. Thus bisexuality was discovered. lol.

Of course he can be bisexual. But, given that he has preexisting feelings for her, you can't just make him all of a sudden want to go for Sephiroth. Unless, of course, they live in a polyamorous society - polyamorous being more or less like polygamous, but without the marriage aspect. If that's the case, though, then you would be seeing much more of that in the world, and seeing as how that's not the case, you have to assume that they live in a "monamorous" society, where whatever feelings he can develop for Sephiroth or Zack (or Angeal or Genesis, despite the fact that he never meets them) must face off against the same (in my opinion, much stronger) feelings he holds for Tifa

I thought this was funny, lol. Zack does lay the burden of carrying his legacy on Cloud. But I think Cloud was okay with this. If not, certainly there wasn't anything there to force him to. He could have easily walked away and tried his best to pick up the pieces of his life. Cloud chose to accept his fate, for the memory of his friend. Well.. at least in my opinion. =]

Yeah, he's undoubtedly fine with it. Just had to let it be known that Zack DOES force something on Cloud.

Uke and Seme are indeed roles we assign guys in the yaoi stories we write. As well do these roles, dominant and submissive, work in hetero relationships as well. To say its a slap in the face to homosexuals is a bit extreme for it would have to be a slap in any sexual orientation's face. Since we are labeling people.

Of course. However, the fact is that it's much more a "fixture" of yaoi works; it does not happen nearly as often in writings about heterosexual relationships... or, for that matter, even lesbian fanfiction. It's a staple of the yaoi genre, and it's a bad staple.

Lets look at the true meaning of yaoi. Yaoi is basically only gay sex. And just that. Not necessarily romance. Thats more so Shounen-ai. True victim/victimizer is moreso a fetish than shounen-ai, but in the world of sex it stands pretty tall. BDSM as an example.

Yaoi is EXPLICIT gay romance. Shounen-Ai is IDEALIZED gay romance. The difference between the two is only in how much of it is explicit.

A story about a domineering Seph and a cowering Cloud should be considered a rape fic. With perhaps a sprinkle of that Something Syndrome where victims become attached to their victimizers. The name eludes me.

We cannot assume Cloud is heterosexual and especially only for Tifa when there hasn't been stated so. Nor can we legitimately say Cloud has a thing for Sephiroth or vice versa. What I think has happened here is we all have forgotten what "Fanfiction" is. It's fiction. It doesnt have to be proven with facts and quotes all the time, but it is certainly fun to imagine and dream. We all have our opinions on things, and what it boils down to.. it's the writer's right to express their imagination as they see fit.

Seeing as how the two possibly romantic relationships he has are with women, it can be safely said that he is, indeed, a straight man. The creators themselves have never stated anything to the contrary; the mere fact that there has been little to no discussion on any romantic relationships with Sephiroth, Zack, Vincent, Cid, Barret, etc., lends more evidence to this assumption.

Of course, like you said, you can certainly write a fanfiction in which he IS gay. But you would have to treat it with the respect that it deserves; not just "Oh, he's gay now."

Yes, there are a lot of SephxCloud fans out there. I am a big fan myself, but I do not think Cloud nor Sephiroth are just gay, period. lol, I mean if they were, all power to them. I have no issue with that. Homosexuality should not be treated as an insult in my opinion. But Im also a large fan of alotta SephirothxAeris fiction too. Perhaps I have a thing for the whole "opposites attract" theory. I find it incredibly sexy. ;]~

"Of course he can be bisexual. But, given that he has preexisting feelings for her, you can't just make him all of a sudden want to go for Sephiroth. Unless, of course, they live in a polyamorous society - polyamorous being more or less like polygamous, but without the marriage aspect. If that's the case, though, then you would be seeing much more of that in the world, and seeing as how that's not the case, you have to assume that they live in a "monamorous" society, where whatever feelings he can develop for Sephiroth or Zack (or Angeal or Genesis, despite the fact that he never meets them) must face off against the same (in my opinion, much stronger) feelings he holds for Tifa"

Mm, I agree. But it is possible over the 2+ years spent in the Shinra Company, anyone can start feeling a certain way for another. It does not mean he has completely forgotten Tifa. People cheat on their wives or husbands all the time, but it does not always mean they do not love them anymore. I think there's a legit opening in the time spent away. Crushes develop and fade as fast as they come.

Even after the events of Final Fantasy VII, in Advent Children, Cloud constantly distances himself. It could be because of the Geostigma, but I honestly dont see the romantic connection between him and Tifa much. Aeris, yes more so. It was also rumored Cloud and Aeris slept together at the Golden Saucer. O: But twas only rumors..

"Of course. However, the fact is that it's much more a "fixture" of yaoi works; it does not happen nearly as often in writings about heterosexual relationships... or, for that matter, even lesbian fanfiction. It's a staple of the yaoi genre, and it's a bad staple."

Unfortunately there will be stereotypes in everything. But even in actual gay, real life relationships you hear alot of discussion about "being the man on top." Society seems to work with the "leaders" and "followers" mind set. It doesnt always make it right of course. But thinking realistically, if one would write a fiction without Uke and Seme, it would seem to come to a stalemate. Without having someone being dominant in bed, sex would be rather dull or a constant struggle. haha.

"Yaoi is EXPLICIT gay romance. Shounen-Ai is IDEALIZED gay romance. The difference between the two is only in how much of it is explicit.

A story about a domineering Seph and a cowering Cloud should be considered a rape fic. With perhaps a sprinkle of that Something Syndrome where victims become attached to their victimizers. The name eludes me."

I think you've returned to your point in the beginning about how "explicit" it would have to be. For a rape fic, Sephiroth would have to be an extreme level of domineer. Most fics I like, Sephiroth is in fact dominant but only to a certain extreme. In most cases a little goes a long way. :]

"Seeing as how the two possibly romantic relationships he has are with women, it can be safely said that he is, indeed, a straight man. The creators themselves have never stated anything to the contrary; the mere fact that there has been little to no discussion on any romantic relationships with Sephiroth, Zack, Vincent, Cid, Barret, etc., lends more evidence to this assumption."

There are no safe assumptions. I cannot say if the Square Soft/Square Enix team ever made any factual comments about a relationship between the three of them. However, I do not believe Cloud is gay nor straight. Because like you said its wrong to say so. The safest route in my eyes is to just say they can be either or.

I totally agree with you. To me people tend to be so closed minded especially (not to bash a group) the Cloti that i come across. Yes Cloud wanted to impress Tifa but that wasn't his main reason there, I feel he went there overall to be like his hero Sephiroth. Yes he had a crush on Tifa but if you played the game and watch the movie overall you can conclude that that crush overall faded and you can see he only loved her a a friend. I feel Kaj-Nrig is only sceptical because it a male/male couple and probably a Cloti because if thats the case you can say Cloud also had romantic feelings for Aeris which i feel was more evident than the feelings to Tifa. But I believe the Seph/Cloud things is possible and I bet that if either Cloud or Seph were a girl instead the majority of fans would have probably been Seph/Cloud. People need to stop being so closed minded and bias thinking only m/f pairings are only acceptable.

First off, my previous post wasn't nearly as "full" as I'd wanted it to be, since I had quite inconveniently began writing it with about ten minutes to walk across campus to my class, so... my apologies.

Yes, there are a lot of SephxCloud fans out there. I am a big fan myself, but I do not think Cloud nor Sephiroth are just gay, period. lol, I mean if they were, all power to them. I have no issue with that. Homosexuality should not be treated as an insult in my opinion. But Im also a large fan of alotta SephirothxAeris fiction too. Perhaps I have a thing for the whole "opposites attract" theory. I find it incredibly sexy. ;]~

I'm not treating it as an insult, if that's what you're saying. I just think that, alongside all the other romance issues, there has to be something within the yaoi story that deals with Cloud's feelings for Tifa. Or Aerith, if that's more to your liking. Or both.

And the whole opposites attract thing is fine and dandy, but if there's to be an actual relationship, then there also has to be more than that. Take, for instance, Yuffentine - my personal de facto fanfiction pairing (though I haven't written anything involving those two in a while). Vincent and Yuffie are more "opposite" than Sephiroth and Cloud are, yet when writing or reading a story about them getting together, there is always, always some sort of common ground. It's not so totally "black and white which is why it's awesome."

Mm, I agree. But it is possible over the 2+ years spent in the Shinra Company, anyone can start feeling a certain way for another. It does not mean he has completely forgotten Tifa. People cheat on their wives or husbands all the time, but it does not always mean they do not love them anymore. I think there's a legit opening in the time spent away. Crushes develop and fade as fast as they come.

Yes, but Cloud remembers his crush all the way through meeting her again. He even goes so far as to disguise himself. (Or just put on his helmet. Whatever.)

And yes, I DO agree that there's at least the possibility of him developing some sort of romantic feelings for his idol - and, again, this period in the game is the ONLY reasonable time for them to even have a chance of being together for rlz. I just think that too many yaoi writers choose to ignore Cloud's character during that time. Sephiroth's not so egomaniacal, of course, people get that, but they treat Cloud much more... vaguely.

Maybe I just don't read "the good stuff," though.

Even after the events of Final Fantasy VII, in Advent Children, Cloud constantly distances himself. It could be because of the Geostigma, but I honestly dont see the romantic connection between him and Tifa much. Aeris, yes more so. It was also rumored Cloud and Aeris slept together at the Golden Saucer. O: But twas only rumors..

1.) In the Case Of stories (which, admittedly, are really, really, REALLY bad; about as bad as Dirge of Cerberus... or Advent Children, for that matter), Cloud's clearly shown as someone who's actually moving on with his life. He moves in with Tifa, stays with Denzel/Marlene, blah blah blah, and it's only after he contracts Geostigma that he goes AWOL.

2.) His romantic interests post-game are just as batshit crazy as they are in-game. People see what they want to see regarding the Triangle, and the creators themselves lack the balls to just come out and make it clear that Cloud's shacking up with Tifa... or a dead Aerith... or a dead Seph... or Vincent.

3.) That Cloud/Aerith sleeping thing is news to me. I know that the creators wanted to imply that he and Tifa "did the deed" when they were alone under the Highwind, but I've never heard anything about Aerith.

Unfortunately there will be stereotypes in everything. But even in actual gay, real life relationships you hear alot of discussion about "being the man on top." Society seems to work with the "leaders" and "followers" mind set. It doesnt always make it right of course. But thinking realistically, if one would write a fiction without Uke and Seme, it would seem to come to a stalemate. Without having someone being dominant in bed, sex would be rather dull or a constant struggle. haha.

Well, yeah, but that doesn't mean that there shouldn't be MORE to "I is master, you is slave." Going back to the Cardcaptor Sakura example - for one, isn't that just kind of awkward that a 21-year old man would cite a little girl's TV show? and for another, I'm not even sure if it's a good example, seeing as how you may or may not know the series - the characters Touya and Yukito are very, very clearly in love with each other. Or at least they are by series's end. Personality-wise, Touya is clearly the more dominant of the two, but their relationship is still nuanced enough that that isn't the only thing that people see.

I think you've returned to your point in the beginning about how "explicit" it would have to be. For a rape fic, Sephiroth would have to be an extreme level of domineer. Most fics I like, Sephiroth is in fact dominant but only to a certain extreme. In most cases a little goes a long way. :]

Maybe I have. I suppose I just don't think that it's much of a "couple" when it's very... stale, I suppose. Generic.

There are no safe assumptions. I cannot say if the Square Soft/Square Enix team ever made any factual comments about a relationship between the three of them. However, I do not believe Cloud is gay nor straight. Because like you said its wrong to say so. The safest route in my eyes is to just say they can be either or.

I said that there's more evidence for Cloud being STRAIGHT than there is for him being GAY. I never said that it was wrong to say that he's one or the other. Which it is, but the point is that there's just more evidence for him reciprocating the affections of women than for him doing the same with men. (Then again, he blows off Tifa and Aerith enough times that he could just be a narcissist.

Also, it's Stockholm's Syndrome. THAT's what I was looking for.

-~-

kousagielric:

To me people tend to be so closed minded especially (not to bash a group) the Cloti that i come across.

Wow. Way to be closed-minded yourself. That comment was totally uncalled for.

Yes Cloud wanted to impress Tifa but that wasn't his main reason there, I feel he went there overall to be like his hero Sephiroth.

Tell me why you feel this way. If you can give me some sort of evidence beyond "I just feel it," then I'll be inclined to believe that your opinion is more than opinion. For my part, I quoted directly from the game the part where he tells Tifa that he joined Shinra because he wanted her to notice him.

Yes he had a crush on Tifa but if you played the game and watch the movie overall you can conclude that that crush overall faded and you can see he only loved her a a friend.

I can also conclude that Vincent's got a thing for Marlene because he hides her in his cloak, but that's just as untrue.

Cloud goes after Tifa in the Nibel Mountains because of his "crush" on her. He joins Shinra because of his "crush" on her. He saves her life because of his "crush" on her. He faces the fact that he's not a SOLDIER because of his "crush" on her. He moves in with her because of his "crush" on her. He tells her that he wants to be with her because of his "crush" on her.

But that's not really my point. My point is simply that you're saying I CAN conclude one thing, which also means that I CAN conclude something else. Which means that I CAN conclude that the crush turned into something more, to the point where he loved her as more than a friend.

I feel Kaj-Nrig is only sceptical because it is a male/male couple and probably a Cloti because if thats the case you can say Cloud also had romantic feeligns for Aerith which I feel was more evident than the feelings to Tifa.Did I not point out the inherently gay couple in Cardcaptor Sakura? No? Well, how about I point out Wolf's Rain, then, which is almost all male-driven? I have no problems with seeing any of them being in romantic relationships with each other. Or, perhaps, the series Gundam Wing (of which I am much better acquainted). Duo Maxwell and Heero Yuy. They could easily be a yaoi couple. The major problems, of course, would be dealing with the two female love interests.

So no, I'm not skeptical of Seph/Cloud becaues it's a male/male couple. I AM of the opinion that Cloud is with Tifa by Advent Children's end and will continue to be with her, but I don't see how that affects my opinion of him being with Sephiroth. I don't see how my thinking that Cloud is and will be with Tifa is important at all, in fact.

I've already made it clear that I don't think they have any chance of developing any sort of romantic relationship post-game (or post-Nibelheim, to be more exact), but I've always contended that they have a much larger probability of being a legitimate couple BEFORE the Nibelheim disaster.

What I assume you're getting confused about is the fact that I just think that, for the most part, people don't put enough effort into characterizing Cloud/Seph well enough to make it believable.

As far as Aerith goes... well, she wasn't even part of Cloud's life pre-Nibelheim, so he obviously doesn't have any romantic feelings for her then. Once he does meet her, and once she dies, and all that, then it, ironically enough, gives even LESS reason for him to be able to get together with Sephiroth.

People need to stop being so closed minded and bias thinking only m/f pairings are only acceptable.

Well. It's clear you haven't read any of my posts.

So, to summarize:

1.) To me, Seph/Cloud is ONLY possible pre-Nibelheim, because post-Nibelheim, their relationship becomes too much of a hate-hate one to have any chance of being reasonably feasible.

2.) Even then, one would have to deal with the fact that Cloud is still very much enamored with Tifa. Pushing it to the side as "just a crush" or some such nonsense like that is simply not doing his character any justice.

3.) Reducing Cloud and Seph to the seme/uke roles, as all yaoi fanfiction is wont to do, is just plain wrong. While it can certainly have its place, depending on the situation, making it decidedly one-sided is simply not doing either of their characters any justice.

Honestly, kousagielric, your post was more than a bit offensive. And very blatantly so, too. I'm trying to find out what I said that actually made you think I was closed-minded and stupid stuff like that.

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