Personally, the types of Sues I hate the most are "total kickass chick female assassin from the past!" ones. They really, really bother me. And they are pretty much the only type of Mary-Sues that really make me mad. I hate all Mary-Sues, but usually I can ignore them and laugh. But assassin Mary-Sues...makes me want to break something.

So what type of Mary-Sues do you hate the worst? And who, above everyone else, do you DESPISE seeing paired up with a Mary-Sue?

As to who I can't stand to see with a Mary Sue... Saitou. Granted, Tokio is mentioned in the anime, but because she was never elborated on many people turn her into like a rabid assassian chick kind of person, and you know what, I just can't see that happening, I could see him killing a woman like that before he'd marry her...I've read alot of good Tokio/Saitou fics, but I can't stand the ones where she's turned into a damn Mary Sue. Ok, I ranted, I'll stop now.. :P

Espiritus, I actually agree with you. As much as the idea bothers me, it's really the fact that a LOT of those fics are bad in many other ways. If I found one that was well-written and had a good plot and strong, three dimensional characters, I would not hold the female assassin bit against it at all. However, it's very hard to pull something like that off. If you've seen it done, I'd love a link!

Oh, and I have actually read Female Battousai or whatever it's called...certainly a pretty Mary-Suey fic, but I have seen much much worse!

It was like Kaoru's mother was leader of a ninja group and then she died and Kaoru became the leader then lost her memory...but I give no justice to the story. If I can find it, again, I will post the link!

As for like-totally-kickass Mary-Sues, well, all I can say is if you really hate them and want to ridicule them, go read Liem's fic MarySue-chan in Rk Wonderland. Really hilarious parody for anyone who hates assassin Mary-Sues, girl-from-the-future Mary-Sues, Kenshin/Mary-Sue, etc. etc.

I can't go post a link to it now, but it's on my favorite's list. Read it! And review and yell at her to update it!

And that bothers me because, yes, Kaoru was rather wimpy at Kenshin's departure, but it's part of her character and she grows from that! When Kenshin is telling them about Tomoe in the Jinchuu arc, Kaoru doesn't let that break her because she knows she has to stay strong at Kenshin's side anyway.

All I'm saying is, Kaoru-Sues bug me a lot because it's the same as a Mary-Sue except the author is using a character I love to do their evil bidding!

I never concidered most of this stuff "Mary-sue's" I've considered it "OOC LAME **!", and I actually haven't read alot of these fics, thank god.

Still though, that fic is ingenious.

But Mary-Sues and OCs are not synonymous. Even if an OC is a characters sibling, lover or child, that does not make her a Mary-Sue. Mary-Sues are usually defined by their perfection (great at fighting, nice to everyone, breathtakingly beautiful, etc. etc.) and flat, one dimensional personalities (as if having a tragic past automatically gives them depth...I think not.)

You can see a good example of a Mary-Sue in almost any fandom. I recommend going to Liem's "Welcome to MarySuedom" C2 (of which I am a staff member) for some good parodies on them.

I found this awesome quiz, well actually my friend found it, but it's a mary sue test. It's pretty long, but it's supposed to help you tell if your characters are mary-sue. I did about half of it for an OC character in one of the RK stories I'm writing(I haven't posted it yet though). I still have a long way to go, but it's pretty fun apart from it being wicked long. It's not perfect but it helps me. So um here's the link if you want to check it out. http://www.angelfire.com/gundam/otto/grayswandir/mary-sue-test.html

And for the LotR fic...was it "The History of a Mary-Sue" by Hoshi the Elf? I've read that and it remains one of the best MS parodies...well, it's more like a lesson in Mary-Sues, but it's really good.

Anyway, I'm gonna go check out the quiz now..

That hardly seems possible!! She is not "the anithesis of a Sue" I don't think...I mean, I don't think she's a Sue or anything, but how could she have gotten such a low score???

Oh, and I forgot to add a point to kenshin's score because he was an assassin. 33 points, then. ::chuckle::

Hm...Does anyone else notice how a lot of authors turn Kaoru into Kaoru-Sue? I think THAT is the worst form of Sue-ism. Author's will be like "I thought Kaoru acted to wimpy when Kenshin left so here I'm writing this fic where she's super cool and kickass all the time!"

I concur wholeheartedly and cringe when I read these as it feeds the Kaoru-haters out there. She's a nice girl with minor human flaws; there's nothing wrong with that. She only appears weak because all her menfolk are serious Stus themselves :)

As for Mary-Sues:

Breaking up a canon pair to fix up your Sue- FORGET IT.

Pairing her up with a major OC- almost never works so don't do it.

Supporting character- irritating but can be tolerated (note I am talking about Sues here; non-Sues are great).

Female OCs are probably the most difficult character type to write since self-insertion as well as a lack of objectivity are constant hazards. I think I have been so turned off by bad OFCs that I am unwilling to try my hand at one. Male OCs tend to be better written, probably because the vast majority of fan fiction is written by women. It takes a lot of skill to write a leading OC and most authors on ff . net (and many published ones, too) don't have that skill.

As for stories with assassin-type OFCs: I honestly can't stand any that I have read so far in which the OFC is a swordswoman. I confess I tend to steer clear as soon as I see a female hitokiri or twagic swordswoman in the story; I simply can't suspend my disbelief to that extent because I simply can't see them fitting into the RK universe, which ties fantastic elements into a fairly traditional Japanese society. It's the same thing I go through with female rangers serving in Gondor in LOTR (as I said in another thread I tend to be strict with my fanfics).

However, I am more accepting of OFCs who perform assassin-type activities as ninjas, geishas, servants, etc. because that is much more believable. Women would be much more successful in these covert areas. I should note that the OC still has to be carefully written so as not to become nonsensical particularly if the OFC falls into the ninja, geisha, or prostitute category (another peeve rant: what is with all the Kaoru-as-prostitute AUs??!) . When geisha are written I wish the author would focus more on the intelligence gathering bit, which was a real strength of women in that profession, and less on the sexy 'ooh-she's-a-geisha-cool' angle. I personally would like to see OFCs in less 'glamorous' or 'sexy' roles, such as the girl who scrubs the pots or dumps the garbage. Would be different.

Antithesis means the direct or exact opposite. So in other words Naruku is not a Mary Sue in every way possible.

I mean, some of the things are unavoidable for any character...for instance, "add one point if your character is..." and some of the choices, Aoshi and Saitou would get a point for! (cop, ninja.)

Anyway, I'm proud that by the litmus test standard, Naruku is a good OC. Because she got a lot of points, but then a lot of points were taken off, as well, for stuff like "subtract two points if your character has ever willingly committed murder" or..."subtract one point if the character has ever fairly lost in any kind of duel, fight, or competition against someone of equal or lesser ability, and the winner was not the character's rival." That was actually a bit too complicated for me to follow, but I know Naruku has definately lost fairly to some one in a fight. Unlike Kenshin!

Anyway, yay!

I was tempted to do it for Saitou *snigger.*

As you can see above, Kenshin got a pretty high score, but he still wasn't a Mary-Sue. Mostly because he doesn't constantly angst about his angst. I think I got pretty lucky with creating Naruku, because I didn't have the overwhelming urge to out-angst all of the RK characters. That would have taken a LOT of angst. Lol, that doesn't even sound like a word anymore!!!

Actually, Naruku's "angsty" bits have nothing to do with her past (well, not nothing, but she had a pretty good life, even if her dad was killed.)

Plus, there's no cliche "secret of my past!! Trinket of amnesia!!!" type stuff. Lol. Not that Naruku is boring...god, I hope not!!

Some of the questions are slightly superfluous, but this is an all-around litmus test for any character, so it had to cover a lot of topics.

There's a test specific to Rurouni Kenshin, but personally I didn't think it was that well-done...because it was kind of a copy of the original "Gargoyals" Mary-Sue litmus test, just with some of the names changes. One day I'll make a litmus test, and it will rule supreme.

Does it bother you to see some one in a canon pair (i.e. Kenshin since he's really the only one we can definitively say is in a pair) paired up with an OC, or does it bother you when, in the story, the canon girl (in this case, Kaoru) is literally pushed aside from him.

So I guess my question is, does it bother you when the canon pair is simply disregarded (or turned into a more platonic bond) or when the couple is literally broken apart by the OC and in the story it goes into that??

Kinda confusing...

As to non-canon pairings for my own writing and such I'm pretty much a canon shipper, but I'm open to new pairings and pairing OCs with charecters, if it's well written. It doesn't make me really upset about it, unless it's so freaking awful (the endless pair Kenshin/Saitou with some girl who continuely kicks his **...now those make me mad...) But meh...as long as it's believable I'm open to new pairings and ideas...

As for the Mary-Sue debate, I can't deny that I wasn't tempted to write one during my novice years. Shameful I know...Hohoho! (winks) Anyway, I haven't done the test yet but I'm planning to swing by the page later. Hm..Hopefully I haven't made my OCs a MS. Just the thought makes me shudder...

I usually try out a number of Saitou x Tokio fics just because... So far I only found two or three that I liked. None of them had the super girl warrior or intelligent teacher type of Tokio. I agree with you a hundred percent about RK Saitou killing some Tokio-sue first before he'd ever marry one. Unfortunately I think part of the problem is, monkey see and monkey do... Some see it in fanfic and then others follow. Then some fan find some "evidence" to support one of the types in history and it's taken as correct because history said so... And yet what we should consider first is IMHO is the RK universe (if you use Watsuki's characterization of Saitou - and most do!). The Tokio made should be someone "RK" Saitou would indeed marry and just because there is a real Saitou in history, does not mean they are one and the same. Some people are upset that I maintain this opinion but I think it's a very important difference (although I still love the incorporation of history in RK, I just don't like the mistake of placing history as the guide for RK especially when that history is derived from "educated guessing", in this case Tokio's life). Even when Saitou x Tokio fics are funny, they usually do it at the expense of having Saitou hen-pecked because the Tokio is too GOOD, too intelligent, comes from a high place in society.. etc. etc. Now if for example, RK specified what personality and abilities Tokio has and if those abilities were the warrior or super intelligent type, then I'd be willing to accept. Sometimes my friend and I think it would've been much better if Tokio was not mentioned at all in RK because first there is no description of her which makes it very prone to Mary Sue and second it makes it harder to write something better for him considering the "fanon" view of Tokio. I feel that in RK, Watsuki-sensei established so many other wonderful women that it's a shame to be stuck guessing what Tokio "is". I mostly write AU/Crossovers/alternate pairings so yes my views are a bit slanted. I am a big fan of Saitou though (real and RK) ^__^*

Anyways, Kaoru-Sues are the worst. I'd like to see a story, where they try to kidnap Kaoru...and she kicks their arse and doesn't have to be rescued by Kenshin. She is a strong girl and able to defend herself from the run of the mill thugs.

Another thing that annoys me to no end. Is when the Mary-Sue's prescence turns Kaoru...into a loud, weak and whiny person. Who clings to Kenshin and throws herself at his feet. Kaoru is transformed into Uber-B***-Kaoru who will stop at nothing to make the pooor pooor little Mary-Sue's life miserable.

Anyways, Kaoru-Sues are the worst. I'd like to see a story, where they try to kidnap Kaoru...and she kicks their arse and doesn't have to be rescued by Kenshin. She is a strong girl and able to defend herself from the run of the mill thugs.

Another thing that annoys me to no end. Is when the Mary-Sue's prescence turns Kaoru...into a loud, weak and whiny person. Who clings to Kenshin and throws herself at his feet. Kaoru is transformed into Uber-B***-Kaoru who will stop at nothing to make the pooor pooor little Mary-Sue's life miserable.

Title: Once Brothers, Always Brothers

Author: sho-kenki

Link: http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3218779/1/

Tell me what you think about it.

i was thinking about one fic in particular called "The King's Mistress" (inuyasha fic). i'm sure many have read that and though i might get in trouble for saying this, but it's very repetitive and kagome is somehow morphed into a marysue! i did offer criticism, and many besides me have noticed this trend. the author replied that this was how the anime/manga portrayed her and that she's trying to stick to it. but PLEASE for the sake of all of us, we DESPISE kagome in the anime/manga. that's why we've tried to change her character so that she has flaws. in this fic, she did have some errors, but they were eventually "fixed" because she is just the perfect little saint -_-

also, i've noticed fics that have kenshin as a playboy and kaoru as the "victim" are very popular. some of even written poorly, but people cant get enough of it. there's something obviously wrong. vampires, pirates, whatever -- most are basically the same storyline.

what we need is new/innovative ideas. i mean, people could still use this as the basis, but at least introduce something original to it. i think fanfics should be taken in great consideration, not as something to be reviewed on.

i admit i used to be this way when i first started out, and by saying all this you might see me as a hypocrite. but yes, i've decided to remove those grotesque stories and start fresh.

it's been 3 years since i've written anything -_- but i did myself a favor and picked up some vocab, snapped back into reality, and did some research. and learn some extra stuff on syntax and passive/active voice.

whenever you write a fanfic, it's best to research i think because it gives the story an authentic feel. i really do appreciate writers who do this because you dont have to check up on their info! you can believe what you read and learn something new every day (if you read fanfics this often..)

ok sorry for going off on a tangent... but yeesh i've been wanting to pour this out. wrong place, huh?

the new thing seems to be: magic/fantasy. but hey, it's new and im glad i like it thanks to some wonderful authors.

... "Little One" by Ravyn is so good! [:

Yes, Mary Sues are the worst when it comes to fanfics and I have to say that this has been an issue in any fanfiction community.

Regarding to the question of whether Tokio was an OC or not, I would have to agree that she is not an OC but she isn't a made up character by anyone. She is actually the REAL second wife of the REAL Saitou (Yes, Saitou -- I think -- is the only character in RK who is real but his personality seems a bit off from the real one.). So, I guess mentioning her in the anime gave it a bit more historical background. Although in terms of the fictional version of Saitou, I would think that Tokio (the fictional kind) would be a very strong woman and possibly a bit conservative seeing as where her husband was from. And I do agree that reading Tokio as someone who kicks ** just as Saitou does kind of ruins it for me. Although the author of 'JIA Case Files: Boulevards of Las Vegas' didn't do a bad job in portraying Tokio in this way. I quite enjoyed the story. But alas, not all authors have that kind of imagination and structure so...let's just hope for the best.

Well according to history, Tokio was infact the daughter of the police chief. A pretty intelligent wedding on Saito's part if you ask me. Saito is according to me, one of the most intelligent and resourceful people in RK and so he was in real life as well.

I really didn't want to reply to this thread anymore since its been years and I don't have an attachment to tokio as a character in rk since she's virtually nonexistent in the rk world except to fanfic writers who chose to include her as a major character in their stories. I'm still surprised though at the answers here so I'll reply once more eventhough I doubt anyone would understand my point of view or lend credibility to what I say about history since my own search is focused on saitou and the shinsengumi mostly.

Technically speaking tokio wouldn't be an original character (OC) because she was a real person. Her one liner mention in rk also wouldn't qualify her as an OC. However her use in the fanfic community is beyond a one liner mention and does imbue her with all sorts of personality and personal history that mostly is not verifiable and mostly a product of the imagination or educated guessing does lend her to be an OC. This is no different when looking at how Watsuki-sensei decided to use Saitou Hajime as his own historically based but OC character. Upon closer inspection saitou from rurouni kenshin aside from the historical basics or events esp with the shinsengumi bears little resemblance to the real saitou, personality wise and even their personal goals. Most writers who like to write original fiction get away from being sued for copyright infringement or being sued by the real persons descendents by declaring their use of a real person as an original character followed with a disclaimer that their portrayal might not follow exactly the real life one (otherwise it would end up as a biography or memoirs and goodness wouldn't the progeny be able to file a lawsuit!).

The character tokio in rk suffers a worse fate in the hands of most unseasoned fanfic writers esp since there's no canon to go by and they are also left at the mercy of using a historical resource that they are not familiar with. She might be "fun" to right but to do it "right" is a completely different matter. I'm still apalled at the number of people to claim to know tokios history and see them babble unverifiable claims or quote facts from thirdparty sources. I'll tell you now that there was never a book that discussed tokio in depth, there are only very short anecdotes. There wasn't even a paragraph of facts about her aside from being married to saitou and having 3 children. How she ended up marrying saitou while he was already married is still a debate. Whether she actually taught home economics at Ochanimizu is not hard fact, she was however a sort of guardian to boarders going to that school (think kind of like a land lady). Her father is not some police chief but an ometsuke, which maybe anything from a neighborhood watcher to a local leader appointed by the tokugawa govt to monitor the area but this is different from the police or town magistrate.

I do feel there's a lack of creativity when dealing with tokio so mostly she ends up as either a badly mangled original character (unlike rk saitou) or a stiff cardboard waste product of history (still unlike historically based saitou). In both cases in the hands of passionate, well meaning but amateur writers she ends up as a worst case mary sue or just a "better to forget" original character. I've stopped writing this character because I don't feel that watsuki really intended her to be more than what she was in the manga, that was to provide a short laugh at Saitou's expense for his rather abrasive personality. Nowadays I don't find it necessary to include Tokio in my stories simply because I now understand just because something is in history, doesn't mean it's wrong or disrespectful -not- to follow suit. It's much better to think of the story first than to be worried about whether something fits history or not. It's better to think of a good characterization that fits the story than to glorify a historical figure and eventually produce a marty stu or mary sue.

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