1. Lola Witherbottoms -- sweet mother of... Lolth/Lloth/Lalala, but her stories are so saccharine you could get diabetes glancing at it. Her I Love You has a Catti-brie who reeks of stalker vibes it's not even funny; her The Beautiful Affair is ludicrous in its portrayal of a broken marriage. I could have stomached, even enjoyed, a well-done portrayal of what might happen if Wulfgar married Catti-cheese and reverted to his chauvinistic, women-beating ways. With realistic exploration of psychological consequences. This... is not it. Takes "healing sex" to an extreme.

2. She-Cat -- I've glanced through her unending self-indulgent fest, Topsy Turvy, and if Salvatore is an altar to mediocrity, then she is a whole honking *temple* the size of several skyscrapers squished together. Her characters are childish, and her portrayal of Drizzt is painful, and I'm speaking as a non-fan.

3. Authoressinhiding offers a short fic, Drizzt's Loss. It contains Drizzt's little Mary Sue of a sister, who has "emerald orbs", can levitate at the age of four (are you kidding me? Liriel's the poster child for magical speshulness, and *she* can only manage faerie fire at the age of five), and throws a temper tantrum that results in Matron Malice allowing *Drizzt* to be her wean mother. What...?

4. Kachi Aozora offers two drow-centric fics, one of which is When Kyran Met Tomoko. I will let an excerpt from it speak for itself:

"Wide, nearly vacuous blue eyes held the amused gaze of some travelling trader (ay least, judging from his battered and dirtied clothes and the pack filled to bursting point and beyond that lay carelessly slung at his feet).

The stranger paused a moment. Not entirely vacuous, those innocent-seeming, partly unfocused eyes; buried beneath layers of drink, there appeared, just for a second or less, to be a glint of intelligence and, more worryingly, a light of calculated manipulative cunning."

Wow, apparently the viewpoint character... can psychoanalyze someone by gazing at the cornea and irises. Impressive. Or, rather, lazy writing. Does "show, not tell" mean anything to this person?

Mind you, my opinion of Salvatore's books (apart from the DET, and even then the writing's... mediocre, IMO) has never been very high, but I think some excellent fanficcers have transcended the source material, such as Dave/Piqsid's A Rainbow in the Dark -- the author, by the way, has put forth rather negative opinions of Salvatore's ability as a writer on the Realm of Infamy message board; he shares my thoughts that even in DET, the ideas are good but the writing not so much -- and the amusing Anya al'Nighter (plus Sandman crossovers are always nice, when done well), as well as smith, who wrote hilarious parodies (unfortunately, he's removed all his stories).

But please. I'm really happy, sometimes, that no major motion picture has been made about FR, because even without, we're already swamped to the eyebrows with subpar fanpoodles. It really doesn't help that Drizzt seems to be all said fanits know.

I agree, though. Too many fangurls who feel the need to call themselves an "authoress," as if adding -ess is needed for us to tell they're female. Good lord.

And for crying out loud, where does it say that unbridled angst equals good reading? Give me a break, Mr. Salvatore. Drizzt is a broken record. How many people have now come back to life only to die on him again? Snore.

And while we're at it, what's with all the LotR crossovers? Keep your Fellowship out of my Realms! And by the same token, keep your Drow out of my Middle-earth! Halaster did not dig so far he hit Moria, dangit!

I feel cleansed. Rant over.

Sweet water to you!

Berz.

***

Berzerker_prime

Headmaster of New Olamn, forum for the Forgotten Realms on the FFN forums network.

Nen lend ah lalaith lim, darthol i lú aphadad govatham.

Gaming quote of the week:

"I didn't think to turn into a bird!"

"African or European?"

- Haman and Amarthir, Company of the Combustible Commode.

http://www.palace.net/~llama/psych/bpd.html

The seven sisters, as they've been novelized, all show symptoms of childhood sexual and/or ritualized psychological abuse. The only possible exception to this seems to have been Alustriel. Interestingly enough, she had a strong father-figure(adopted) that provided a stern, harsh, but relatively stable upbringing. Although, she's a swinger now too. D:

It's amazing how far we'll go to suspend disbelief sometimes. I liked the DET in the way that I liked Robert Heinlein's work; Great ideas, flat characters with the few exceptions having a dubious psychological basis. I enjoyed DET and even liked Drizzt but his story became more and more incredulous. I'm now convinced that Drizzt is a precision crafted product created by a board of marketing directors. Everything about him is safe. He is designed so that the average teenager can relate to him without feeling insecure about liking him. He feels guilt, that is safe because it's based on circumstances beyond his control and not as a result of some character flaw. He feels grief, that is safe because the reader has already been assured that his loved ones are not really dead. He feels anger, that is safe because the object of his hate is always 'evil'. He feels never-ending angst, that is safe because...well I don't want to alienate too many people, do I?

And it does'nt stop there. Salvatore has seen fit to sprinkle more and more qualfiers such as "This was no ordinary drow" in his work, as if he's afraid of the readers thinking for themselves. It's like having a laugh track in a T.V. sitcom or Spielberg's spielbergian spielbergs. Spielberg always intersplices the amazing scenes of his movies with long shots of the characters looking amazed at what the audience is looking at just in case they did'nt know that what they were looking at was supposed to be amazing. DET was'nt nearly so insulting, so I could forgive it's flaws.

To paraphrase Fry from Futurama, "Clever makes people feel stupid and unexpected makes them feel scared!"

It's funny how sometimes art will imitate life, albeit inadvertently. Ever wonder why the followers of Eilistraee don't seek Drizzt out and rally around him? Everyone knows who he is and where he lives(Mistral Hall). He's done more to rehabilitate the image of drow than anyone, right? There are at least sixty drow hiding in Silverymoon alone, right? Maybe they find his tale of untarnished purity as doubtful as we do and have washed their hands of him. They are a religion built on redemption; they feel guilt for things they've actually done wrong.

The title of 'Immaculate Savior' was originally going to be 'Immaculate Flavoure'. I was going to write it 'serious' in classic Salvatore fashion. But bit by bit I was going to make it a little more absurd and nasty, like a lecher slowly sliding his hands up a woman's skirt. By the time the reader would have realized what was happening, I'd have been stroking the goods for at least ten minutes. Unfortunately, I did'nt have the discipline to do it right. Oh well, plot-bunny anyone?

Another long-winded, self-indulgent post. Somebody please kill me, I can't make myself stop.

"Too many fangurls who feel the need to call themselves an "authoress," as if adding -ess is needed for us to tell they're female."

I loathe the feminizing of perfectly fine, gender-neutral nouns. I once joked around with some people: "What's next, kingess? Bitchess?" *eyeroll*

"And while we're at it, what's with all the LotR crossovers? Keep your Fellowship out of my Realms! And by the same token, keep your Drow out of my Middle-earth! Halaster did not dig so far he hit Moria, dangit!"

Hell yes. It's not even funny anymore, as much as Salvatore's Companions of the Hall has a makeup that resembles the Fellowship's. What really, really ticks me off is when fanbrats put drow in ME and don't realize that ME already has dark elves, the Moriquendi. Nor do they realize that, say, Legolas is one. Ditto for Arwen.

crushingsky:

"Everything about him is safe. He is designed so that the average teenager can relate to him without feeling insecure about liking him."

Well... yes, if you disregard the fact that he names one of his swords Twinkle. :D

"Salvatore has seen fit to sprinkle more and more qualfiers such as "This was no ordinary drow" in his work"

Argh. Yes. I used to think that phrase showed up in Smith's parodies because, well, it's a parody. Then I realized that, no, it's not. Even Guen gets "this was no ordinary panther." Baaaarf.

"Another long-winded, self-indulgent post. Somebody please kill me, I can't make myself stop."

Nah, it was fun to read. :) (Even though I can't muster enough intelligent responses...)

Actually, the sword was already called Twinkle when Drizzt first got it.

*NITPICK'D!*

The concept of the Drow and Underdark varies from the Salvatore-like impossible economically, socially and politically to nowadays "there are good drow, there are drow on the surface and in the underdark, there are Lloth non-worshiping drow... any sort of drow you want"). In other words, the attempts to freshen up and brush up the silly concept, in combination with Salvatore's franchise pretty much destroyed what was not there to begin with. The only thing I do still like about drow is that they did not start the Crown Wars.

The rest is... uhm, bad? Obviously, the bad boys of FR, and allegedly more interested in sex than Renessaince men in Italy, they would attract the teenagehood. Good for them. I just don't read anything that has Drizzt, Cattie or Underdark. If I want villians, I will be looking towards the underused stuff, like the Red Wizards, Cult of the Dragon, Knights of the SHield, Mulhorandi... I am sure there are plenty areas to explore on the surface, and that drow aren't only evildoers out there.

And, in my view, the worst explored, and the most interesting setting of them all in FR was the Planscape prior to the dissolution of the Factions.

Cheers, and have fun writing!

Normally I avoid Drizzt like the plague and concentrate on my highschool crush, Entreri (it is slightly embarrassing) because Drizzt seriously began ticking me off by the third book in the Icewind Dale Trilogy. Drizzt's goodness is a convenient thing. He skips around avoiding all blame and consequences for his actions. If he likes you, it is okay to have 'a mischevious streak' (Cattie-brie anyone?) but if anyone else commits some of the same actions, they are branded evil. Complete hypocracy.

I think I gravitated to Entreri out of outrage against Drizzt. I mean, come on, anyone else who attempted genocide (forgive me if I'm off on this, I didn't read 1K Orcs) in the realms would get RAS' goat and stamped a Nazi. And when Drizzt comes out of his 'kill all things porcine' haze, what does he do? If I hear correctly, he feels bad and decides to see things from Entreri's point of view? WTF??? He changes his POV purely for his own selfish reasons, to escape blame and guilt.

And his so-called alignment is Good? I think he's done more for the forces of evil than ever he did for good. If I was captain of the Good team, I'd kick Mr. Chaotic Hypocritical off for playing drawback.

Don't start me on the flattening of Entreri's character in the latest book. Sure, he was always rather cardboard (though he did gain a bit of dimension in Silent Blade), but now he's not even 2D. RAS had a midlife crisis and traded in Drizzt the Minivan for Entreri the Black Camaro. So glad I read the book in the store instead of buying it.

I'm not really presenting my case very well here, just blathering outrage. At any rate, in an attempt to alleviate my concerns, I was working on a fic where Entreri and Drizzt meet some twenty years in the future and they have a nice philosophical debate wherein a realistically 'reformed' Entreri accuses Drizzt of being the 'bad one.' Because who wants to be a good guy around such a pontificating **? I know it sounds like a stretch, but I'm not sure it will be a complete failure. I must admit, I hope it gets flamed because flames are amusing, but I mainly want to challenge the common perception that Drizzt is good.

I'm not normally this much of a scatterbrain. (shakes head)

As a white american with a protestant background, I have to agree. I lay blame at the feet of 'puritan' morality, whose grasp far exceeds its reach and its effects on the American educational system(which is supposed to be secular). I grew up in California which is supposed to be the most 'open-minded' state in the union but even as late as highschool, when we were almost grown adults they taught that:

--Every story has a protagonist and the protagonist is the one who is most morally superior. When I asked my teachers who the protagonist was in 'Moby Dick', they would fumble around or try to tell me that the narrator was the protagonist, even though he is clearly a passive observer. I almost flunked a book report on 'Moby Dick' when I was 13 because I would'nt choose a protagonist. The teacher finally let me pass after I relented and argued that Moby Dick was the protagonist because he was just doing what a whale does. (Yes, they really do smash ships to pieces and bite the captain's limbs off)

--Any tragic reading experiences were to presented to us by form of a non-threatening animal proxy. So as to not upset us, you see. Our reading list in high school?

----Summer of the Monkeys, Where the red fern grows, The day no pigs would die, The red pony, if the teacher was REALLY adventurous-- Animal Farm, Old Yeller, etc. Keep in mind, I was not in a remedial english class. We did read a couple of the 'safer' shakespeare plays, but the archaic language dulled the impact considerably. It's funny, we were'nt supposed read anything regarding sex, even courtship between mature adults, but we could read about a boy watching his pet pig 'Pinky' getting raped by a gigantic boar named 'Samson'. The boy's father had even slathered lard onto the boy's pig's hindquarters for the giant boar's convenience. Ugh. No. Baaaaarff!

--Critical thinking and analysis are NOT to be taught in school, lest some parents' religous and/or politcal views be challenged by debate. Instead the literary message, if any was to be discussed, was provided to us by the teacher's syllabus. Protagonists must be unconflicted and of unambiguously moral character.

Needless to say, these rules don't necessarily apply in college, so alot of people crash and burn. It's no wonder that Drizzt's long span of books makes such compelling reading to young victims. It's positively racy in comparison while still not breaking the rules of their force-fed literary fare.

*Sigh. Why do we keep doing this? Why can't we just let this thread float down the river like the stinky turd it is? How can something provoke our indignation so endlessy?

Are you really so sadistic?

Yes. ^_^ Schadenfreude is good.

Did/do you have any guilty pleasures, as far as fiction goes?

Sure, I just won't call them omg teh best books I've ever read!!oneone. I found the early Anita Blake books entertaining, and most FR novels can't be called anything but light entertainment. Hell, I read *manga.*

Dominique Sotto said:

And, in my view, the worst explored, and the most interesting setting of them all in FR was the Planscape prior to the dissolution of the Factions.

Yes! I want Planescape back. :(

Euphorbic said:

A character so flat he could limbo under a pancake and stamped with the author's inconsistent patronising messages.

Did you read "Spine of the World"? The Drizzt journal entry in that one was... gah. The anti-drug message is so heavy-handed it's not even funny.

Don't start me on the flattening of Entreri's character in the latest book. Sure, he was always rather cardboard (though he did gain a bit of dimension in Silent Blade), but now he's not even 2D. RAS had a midlife crisis and traded in Drizzt the Minivan for Entreri the Black Camaro. So glad I read the book in the store instead of buying it.

I found it endlessly amusing that Entreri's change of personality is so very, very contrived (come on, he... plays a flute, and wham?), but his fans will lap this lazy plot device up anyway.

crushingsky said:

I grew up in California which is supposed to be the most 'open-minded' state in the union but even as late as highschool, when we were almost grown adults they taught that:

It's funny. Early on, they will teach you one thing, because it's simplified and so "children can grasp it" (you can never subtract a greater number from a smaller one), then next they teach what you learned earlier is wrong (there exists such a thing as negative numbers), and by the time you go to university, you discover everything you've learned in high school is wrong. Precious. Go, education, go.

Every story has a protagonist and the protagonist is the one who is most morally superior.

Rofles? Pre-tertiary education English teachers can be such idiots.

The boy's father had even slathered lard onto the boy's pig's hindquarters for the giant boar's convenience. Ugh. No. Baaaaarff!

GAFF has taken its toll on me, because this made me giggle. Hur hur.

Needless to say, these rules don't necessarily apply in college, so alot of people crash and burn. It's no wonder that Drizzt's long span of books makes such compelling reading to young victims. It's positively racy in comparison while still not breaking the rules of their force-fed literary fare.

Heh. I'm rather glad I never had to undergo American education. As for the racy content, over at the RAS board, some people are debating that the mention of drow orgy and a priestess going at it with a demon should be rated NC-17. Or something.

*Sigh. Why do we keep doing this? Why can't we just let this thread float down the river like the stinky turd it is? How can something provoke our indignation so endlessy?

Tell us how you really feel. XP

That's one of those cases when real is funnier than a lie. I have to say that I do own one of the latest Salvatore's - Two Swords, I think - but I only got it because it was a free addition to the other hardcover (Hobb's Liveships #1) at the 50 cents for two hardcovers in the library. My other choice was one of the Hayden's travesties, and I picked Salvatore. Could not read past the first few sentences.

But, people do like it. Unexplicably, strangely, and, in a way, delightfully. I doubt that anyone could be presuaded to stop wanting to desperately snog Drizzt in a sweet and flowery fashion. And is it necessary? They are having fun, sort of a virtual sleep-over, talking about QT boys. That's what people do. Heck, should Martin allowed f-f's, I think I won't be above drooling over Jaime or Rhaegar with the like-minded population.

I am thinking though, that the movies based off Salvatore, would be rather bad, because he does not have strong dialogues to draw upon, the way LoTR did, and his plots alone won't pull the movie through. Hence, while the fans might be delighted, there won't be a mass-appeal. It will just go down the same way as the Dungeons and Dragons went.

But, I am keeping my fingers crossed for them to do the Lions of Al'Rassan well. It will be perhaps too smart for the numerous fan-fictions about Amman, just like Kay's books themselves do not spawn numerous fics. I keep thinking that the better the book, the less fan-fictions it produces. :)

(Winterfox: edit for bad code.)

I think you'd have been better off with Hayden. Her writing's a lot more competent, and even if Rhapsody is the Sue to end all Sues, at least the setting and the support characters (Achmed in particular) are pretty decent.

I doubt that anyone could be presuaded to stop wanting to desperately snog Drizzt in a sweet and flowery fashion. And is it necessary?

Well, I for one am not trying to stop them. Poking fun of them is still amusing, though. Besides, I suspect that in a few years some of them will look back on this and be embarrassed as hell. :P

The 'Entreri-that-should-be' rather than the piece of crap RAS writes. It sucks, but even though RAS is a nice guy and I hate to slam his writing because of that, he shouldn't be in the industry.

Agreed. Most of the remotely half-decent fanfics I've read are leagues better than what he churns out.

and says that Entreri only really very rarely got laid in Pashas' harems.

To be perfectly fair, I think it's mentioned once or twice that he shags a prostitute here and there, when he feels the need. And in the latest book, he notices the women a lot, and ends up screwing-- I'm sorry, "making love" -- to one.

That's a point of interest. According to RAS' hypocritical (and highly ridiculous) 'message,' it is worse to have sex with consensual partners than to kill somebody that obviously doesn't want to die.

It's a funny double-standard. I can have a description of someone being forced to skin himself alive, in loving details, keep my story PG-13, and nobody'd mind. If I put in a fairly euphemistic description of (completely consensual) oral sex, on the other hand, I'll have to push the rating to R -- at the very least.

*I* was hand-writing Mary Sues nursing Entreri back to health back then, even if I've been writing realistic stories with high body counts and little romance now.

I didn't write much in term of Sues, but I produced some pretty execrable writing when I was younger. However, I kept it all in my notebooks and have thrown them away since. If I had put them up for public view, I'd have been fair game for all types of feedback (and incurred much embarrassment for myself). My guiding principle is: don't want negative feedback? Then keep it on your harddrive.

Whether it is smut, badfic, or WaFF, don't read it if you don't like it.

How do I know if it's badfic until I read it, though, especially if the summary's not exactly riddled with typos and grammatical errors? And, if I've read and been dissatisfied, why shouldn't I review and say so?

Sweet flaming donkey's butt! I absolutely HATED that scene. As soon as I read it, I yelled "Whaaat?" out loud and quit reading the book (I'm not kidding). Fortunately, that particular bit was at the very end of the novel. Unfortunately, it left a very bad aftertaste and now I'm even less eager to read the next book, unless RAS cuts that woman out of the picture.

It felt so tacked on, and I don't think there was nearly enough chemistry between Entreri and Ca-whatever-her-name-is to justify a boinking atop some tavern table. Grrargh!

I can have a description of someone being forced to skin himself alive, in loving details, keep my story PG-13, and nobody'd mind. If I put in a fairly euphemistic description of (completely consensual) oral sex, on the other hand, I'll have to push the rating to R -- at the very least.

Meh, they give the same treatment to TV and movies where I'm from. You show an entire platoon of men getting violently shot to shreds in a bloody gunfight, and no one censors it. But if you show a single naked rear end on screen for a few seconds, then you get people writing to the networks saying 'WHOA WE GOTTA BOYCOTT THIS SHOW BECAUSE IT'S THE DEVIL!'.

The image's amusing, at least. According to most people, though, as far as RAS females go, Calihye's one of the more bearable ones. But frankly, I still maintain the opinion that the man can't write prominent female characters to save his life; his attempts at making them "independent" and "strong" just turn them bitchy.

But if you show a single naked rear end on screen for a few seconds, then you get people writing to the networks saying 'WHOA WE GOTTA BOYCOTT THIS SHOW BECAUSE IT'S THE DEVIL!'.

Or "OMG THINK OF TEH CHILDRYNNNN!11!oneone." Does it strike you as ridiculous that a PG-13 film is "allowed" to have one, and one only, instance of the f-word?

*eyeroll* Ah, the US.

...no. I don't think I have anything to contribute here for the time being, save for voicing my general agreement with all that's been said previously.

I'd hate, however, to see this perfectly adorable Drizzt&RAS bashing tread stray into the (equally amusing) ratings-and-other-idiotic-regulations bashing, so...

*warning! self-plug ahead!*

...so I'm inviting you all to join me here: http://www.fanfiction.net/ft/764586/4238/1/ and partake in some lovely and productive(?) rules-bashing discussion. It's been so lonely and deserted there of late... Le sigh.

*self-plug over; back to lurking*

I will not read either, to be honest. There are so many good books in the line-up, that I am not sure I would want to waste my time on the girl whose virginity had to be restored, bacuse her first love proved to be true, while she thought it was untrue... Gah. The curse of a moden person - have no time to read.

[quote]Well, I for one am not trying to stop them. Poking fun of them is still amusing, though. Besides, I suspect that in a few years some of them will look back on this and be embarrassed as hell.[/quote]

True, but then, I think, that people generally tend to look back with embaressement on pretty much everything they had done. I will be the first one to poke fun at everything I write. I find it the healthiest and most rewarding attitude.

Then again, I *am* in an SCA Fool's Guild. I laugh at everything. ^_^;

Sweet water to you!

Berz.

***

Berzerker_prime

Headmaster of New Olamn, forum for the Forgotten Realms on the FFN forums network.

Nen lend ah lalaith lim, darthol i lú aphadad govatham.

Gaming quote of the week:

GM Bobsan: A guy comes out, dressed in an apron.

PC Kyju: The butcher!

GM Bobsan: Not a *bloody* apron!

PC Kiisa: The baker!

PC Kyju: The candle-stick maker!

GM Bobsan: Ooohhh, god...

- The Korogs of Mystara.

I absolutely could not agree more with this statement. I love my country as much as the next guy, but the sheer arrogance of my fellow Christain Americans can sometimes astound me. But I'll leave the rest of my political ranting at the door. I have a lot of it just because of the city I live in and love and it can go on for pages! ^_^;

But I don't think either of us should have to be made to feel foolish for that sort of thing. We didn't know they were bad when we wrote them. Sure, I read that crap today and I'm laughing my ** off, but everyone starts off bad (unless you're Drizzt and then you're just so special). Pointing out the badness is actually helpful, but so is encouraging the good points.

Personally, I keep a 3-ring binder full of the horribly hand-written pieces of fic I wrote when I was eleven in an honored place on my shelf. It's just up there, gathering dust, but it's a good reminder of what not to do... like write a script-format Power Rangers/Deep Speace Nine crossover with a Mary Sue tossed in for good measure. Thank god I'm twenty-three!

Oof dah, have I really been doing this for twelve years!?! Maybe it's time to get rid of that binder after all...

It only takes a paragraph for an experienced reader/writer to identify badfic. I'm assuming, by the intelligence you have exhibited so far, that you are able to figure it out at a glance.

Oh, I dunno, I've been the victim of many badfics in disguise. You know the type; they're good up until a certain point. I was reading a decent Doctor Who fic not too long ago where Doc 9 took Rose to see ancient Greece... and then in chapter four, it turned out to be a crossover with Xena and an excuse to get Captain Jack in bed with Gabrielle. It was like a ninja badfic. And it wasn't the first time such a thing had happened to me either.

(I reserve judgment on your possible liking of Elaine Cunningham. Everyone is allowed at least one guilty pleasure, but it makes it harder to understand why you have so little tolerance for badfic.)

Okay, I'll admit that I had to warm up to Arilyn. For the first half or so of Elfshadow she just screamed Mary Sue at me; tough-as-nails half-elf who had been disowned by her prejudiced family but who still had a heart of gold and a magical sword... and oh yeah, she's amazingly beautiful and good at almost everything she does. And, I will admit that before Danilo's introduction I was contemplating setting the book aside altogether.

But by the end of Elfshadow she had grown on me quite a bit. I couldn't put my finger on it for the longest time, but it was about mid-way through Silver Shadows that I realized that it was because half of the story in the Songs and Swords series is about slapping some sense into Arilyn.

As for Danilo, no, he's not the deepest character I've ever read. But he's also supposed to be the more accessible character of the two. Putting on an act to trick people into thinking you are something or someone you are not is something that everyone has done to some degree at some point in their lives. As a result, Danilo is someone we can all identify with at least a little. Not so much with an orphaned, half-elven moon-fighter.

A lot of people, including Elaine Cunningham herself, call Danilo an imported Scarlet Pimpernel. So do I, because he is. A lot fewer people realize that the Scarlet Pimpernel was himself a modernized Arlicchino (for those not familliar with the term, he was a character from late mideval and renaissance improvisational theater famous for being smarter than he appeared to the rest of the characters and indeed even the audience at times). And in that sense, Danilo's characterization is spot-on. Trust me.

Sweet water to you! ^_^

Berz.

He requires Rainbow Brite-esque flutes for exceedingly bad character development. Can we call that character undevelopment?

Yes. Yes, you can. My god, it's so obviously a plot device that it's sad.

But I don't think either of us should have to be made to feel foolish for that sort of thing. We didn't know they were bad when we wrote them.

And? The sooner you learn how bad it is, the better.

I'm assuming, by the intelligence you have exhibited so far, that you are able to figure it out at a glance.

Not always. There's such a thing as fiction that goes sour in the third, fifth, or even eleventh chapter.

(I reserve judgment on your possible liking of Elaine Cunningham. Everyone is allowed at least one guilty pleasure, but it makes it harder to understand why you have so little tolerance for badfic.)

Eh, as FR novelists go, I consider EC to be one of the better ones. *Which* FR novelists do you consider palatable, if any?

Is the reviewer honestly trying to aid the writer?

Nobody's obliged to, period.

Do they include good with the bad?

If there's nothing good to mention, I won't mention any. I don't feel like lying in this context.

Does the reviewer crave the same treatment?

I've invited plenty of people to give me the harshest feedback they can, so eh.

Does the reviewer want other people to view his/her witticism and thus garner a 'cool' image? Any image/attention, for that matter?

Now, now, don't go Internet Therapist (http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/therapist.htm) on us. :P And, on this point:

I question the motives of people that do, though.

Okay, I'd like to question the motives of people that spit out badfics: are they trying to contribute to the fandom (something which isn't an obligation)? Are they trying to tell a good story? Are they making an attempt to characterize, plot, and construct sentences well? Or are they writing masturbatory, shallow fantasy? How much time did they spend on this piece I consider crud, and if they spent a year on it, why am I supposed to care? It's the end result that counts, not the motive; much the same goes for feedback. You can mean very well but still toss out shabby, useless feedback (offering incorrect information, correcting things that aren't mistakes, and so on); you can pepper your review full of snark, but if you don't start attacking the author personally and know what you're talking about, then the author'd benefit from making use of it. If harsh feedback makes the fanbrat's self-esteem crack and drives her to give up writing forever, why, it's no loss, and she needs to grow a thicker skin in any case.

Okay, I'll admit that I had to warm up to Arilyn. For the first half or so of Elfshadow she just screamed Mary Sue at me; tough-as-nails half-elf who had been disowned by her prejudiced family but who still had a heart of gold and a magical sword... and oh yeah, she's amazingly beautiful and good at almost everything she does. And, I will admit that before Danilo's introduction I was contemplating setting the book aside altogether.

My reaction wasn't as strong -- I didn't feel the urge to drop the book -- but yes, Arilyn grated on me, too. The woman takes herself so damn *seriously*, and Danilo was a welcome change of tone.

I couldn't put my finger on it for the longest time, but it was about mid-way through Silver Shadows that I realized that it was because half of the story in the Songs and Swords series is about slapping some sense into Arilyn.

Yes. If only Salvatore'd take the same approach...

Do. ;) It'll be good to let it out.

Funnily, in Jordan, I pretty much came to despise each and every character, but I still read the Waste of Time, and will finish it, mind boggling as it was.

Hah. I gave up after the first few chapters. My god, does the prose *drag*, and the descriptions just go on without any end in sight.

In Cunningham, I hated every character, I hated the plot, I almost hated the setting (!) and I got convinced that she was purposedly insulting my intelligence or something to that extent. Hence, deep, dark aversion.

Really? How so? I mean, a lot of fantasy novels do that, but it doesn't make me seethe. Greenwood's fiction makes me seethe simply because of overall badness. Even then, I'll convert the irritation to ranting and making fun of the whole thing. Hey, at least I'll get some entertainment out of it.

Agreed, though, that even in one single book, Liriel still turned out far more deep and rounded a character than poor Drizzt can ever hope to be. However, other characters were downright silly there, so based on that, I think I'll rather call Liriel that author's lucky shot than a real testimony of her character-developing skills.

The entire Elilistraee-Vhaeraun followers conflict is completely off-track and definitely painted simple black and white, instead the shades of grey both fractions really are. Right, so I am biased towards Vheraunites, so you can put at least half of my frustration down to that, but even so... Vhaeraunites selling *drow male children* into slavery!? the fraction that is highly male-oriented? the fraction that is small and out for every last follower thay can get, teh younger the better? Selling drow males? yeah, right. ANd cows jump over the moon these days, too.

And what to say about two-headed deep dragon, save that it strikes me solely as a poor attempt of a comic relief, while the infamous "wand of lichdom" almost literally gave me serious case of dhiarrea.

So no, I really don't think highly of EC and her writing skills, though I still can't deny that every now and then, she *did* come up with a good character or a well-escribed scene.

/rant

ANd since now I should really get back to my own writing, I'll just say I generally agree with Winterfox when she says badfic athors should a) get flamed, b) grow a thicker hide and c) prefferably stop spamming this site with whatever verbal mastrubation crosses their minds next. I could say something along the lines of me hoping that said flames will be taken in as constructive criticism and help them become better writers some day, but after glancing at some of the stuff such persons wrote - tough!

You think it drags in the first books? Ha! Try the 10th. You think that descriptions dragging is bad? Well, by the time you break through about six of them, you will start experiencing the cold, fatalistic dread of a person who is stuck chest deep in a bog, and kknows for a certain that there is no escape. The 10th book (I can't be bothered to remeber the name), the whole 900 pages of it, had the following plot: all factions in the book *reacted* to a major enough event that had happened in book 9. In the Book 11 that even was mentioned in passing once. Jordan can be good at times, even entertaining. He has some neat tricks, and funny wordings, some silly concepts (Men from Mars, Women from Venus taken to extreme)but overoll, Jordan is like sigarettes - it's better never to start, it's tough to quit after a while.

[quote]Really? How so? I mean, a lot of fantasy novels do that, but it doesn't make me seethe. Greenwood's fiction makes me seethe simply because of overall badness. Even then, I'll convert the irritation to ranting and making fun of the whole thing. Hey, at least I'll get some entertainment out of it.[/quote]

There is nowhere to rant. I casually mentioned at Candlekeep library once in my introduction post that I like the CRPG set in FR (Baldur's Gate), but not the books, and you would have thought that I have said that I want Hitler to be the President elect of Earth. Ranting is good, but in a good company. Oh, another thing, for ranting, you should actually remember the book. I forgot the book, apart from the fact that I knew who the villian was the moment I saw him, that Arylin was the most annoying person alive, that Danilo was madly in love with her, but they bickered lamely all through the book, and that the whole plot with killing both Harpers and non-Harpers, the idiocy of the wrong evil guy, who let the sickening Arylin off the hook, because he figured Oh! she is not her mother... Oh, boy. Yep, the aversion is still here.

However, other characters were downright silly there, so based on that, I think I'll rather call Liriel that author's lucky shot than a real testimony of her character-developing skills.

Mmm. If you still want to give EC a try, I'd recommend Counselors & Kings trilogy. Or her non-FR fiction, the Changeling series.

The entire Elilistraee-Vhaeraun followers conflict is completely off-track and definitely painted simple black and white, instead the shades of grey both fractions really are.

It doesn't help that every other FR novelist does it, too. Neither the Elistraeens in "Silverfall" or "War of the Spider Queen" are anything but shining white, or at least very obviously good.

And what to say about two-headed deep dragon, save that it strikes me solely as a poor attempt of a comic relief

Still doesn't top Salvatore's dwarves. :P

while the infamous "wand of lichdom" almost literally gave me serious case of dhiarrea.

Yeah, that was silly. Becoming a lich takes complicated rituals and preparation. Condensing it into a wand is... uhm.

Dominique Sotto:

Men from Mars, Women from Venus

I've heard of the infamous women tugging their braids, sniffing, and crossing arms under their breasts. Repeatedly and at every chance possible. Is it true?

There is nowhere to rant. I casually mentioned at Candlekeep library once in my introduction post that I like the CRPG set in FR (Baldur's Gate), but not the books, and you would have thought that I have said that I want Hitler to be the President elect of Earth.

Ahahaha. Oh, if you could see the flaming rows I had with Greenwood's fans; I even went so far as to give them a link to my scathing review of "Spellfire" and "Silverfall." (At least one of those fans played in his home campaign, is a close friend of his, and constantly makes references to "not minding sex on the gaming table with him." Just... too much information?)

An understatment. I sometimes joke, that I read in hopes that someone shaves the champion of the braid pulling bald. The latest book adds spanking to the list and a flood of the "pillow friends" engulfs the Randland - apparently Jordan discovered that lesbians are hawt or something. Males, on the other hand, are often described as so hard that *insert a stone, steel, another man, a nation* would appear (almost) soft, regrettably always in the non-sexual context. The list of Jordan's flaws can rival in length the Lord of the Rings.

I suppose Paul Kemp, but I'm not much of a reader these days. My standards have gotten so out of hand that I really don't enjoy reading fiction anymore. Besides, if I write my own thing, I can usually guarantee it will be something *I* can enjoy. Writing for somebody else isn't as nice and unless you know somebody in the industry, the money is crap and working to *get* that crap is a terrible headache.

I think it is best to go with Oscar Wilde when he said, 'Always reading, never read.' If you really want to write, there's a certain point where you need to cut back on your reading. I think the last work of Fiction I've read is 'Palace Walk' and that is the only work of fiction I read last year.

As for being on the 'Flame Warrior Roster' as a Therapist: I don't flame people that desire me to flame them. Because *I* enjoy it when people flame *me*. I know they are angry while I'm reduced to laughing hysterics and that feels great. But, at any rate, I'll take your suggestion as a compliment, because I like psychology and I am highly psychoanalytical. (serene smile)

I tried to get into his Erevis Cale books, and... it didn't really catch me. I dunno, I just got bored.

My standards have gotten so out of hand that I really don't enjoy reading fiction anymore.

O_o I don't read as much as I used to due to time constraints, personally, but I'll still try to make a bit of time for authors I enjoy. I don't know about you; reading something genuinely good always gives me a fresh look on my own writing.

If you really want to write, there's a certain point where you need to cut back on your reading.

What makes you think so?

I know they are angry while I'm reduced to laughing hysterics and that feels great.

Are you one of those people who'd instigate lengthy back-and-forth threads of "I'm laughing at you, so hah!"/"Well, I'm laughing at you *harder!* Haha!" at fandom_wank?

Dominique Sotto: Is it also true that, at one point in the Waste of Time series, some male character is forced to have sex with an old, wrinkly queen or something?

Nah, not true. She has a son slightly younger than the male, Mat, but she is, of course, beautiful. Then she dies in time for him to start a love affair/marry a young, exotic and beautiful heir to an Empire. The WoT men never have sex with women who are not beautiful. It's just like that episode of the Third Rock from the Sun, when the town is captured by the aliens that all look like photomodels. I doubt that there are any non-beautiful women in the series, appart of a few inn-keepers and comic relief characters. That's because all the characters end up paired up, or, in case of Rand, the main character, get a harem of women who treat each-other like sisters, despite one of them being a queen, another - a Dune's Freeman crossed with Bene Gessarit, and the last - a cozy feminist-activist.

It doesn't help that every other FR novelist does it, too. Neither the Elistraeens in "Silverfall" or "War of the Spider Queen" are anything but shining white, or at least very obviously good.

I'm probably asking for it here, but since when was nearly tearing someone apart for walking in on a religious ceremony shining white? Since when was hunting down lycanthropes who came to them for a cure for their kid obviously good? I can't help but wonder what happened to the Selune-worshipping lycanthropes they were said to collaborate with in an earlier sourcebook. Perhaps they were accidentally massacred.

And even if it's not actually discrimination, an exclusively (or very near to exclusively) female clergy would have all kinds of implications to someone fresh from the Underdark. I can just imagine what the conversion-conversations they have with Vhaeraunites are like. (If I can't imagine it I can't very well eventually write it, can I?)

From what I've seen the problem isn't so much that the Eilistraeens are depicted as perfect - they're obviously not - but that they're not really called on what mistakes they do make.

As for other points brought up in this topic - I'm not touching the Drizzt issue, except to say that regardless of his character quality one of him is enough. That said, I'm inexplicably fond of drow in general - maybe it's the color scheme - whether or not they're evil, though I do prefer them as something other than more odd-eyed renegades pure as the driven snow/straight-up raving fanatic Lolth worshippers who're slaughtering their siblings even before they're born.

Incidentally, the last post in this topic was on the day I posted my first drow fanfic (which I hope does not fall under the discussed category). You think there's a numerological message in there somewhere?

blah blah blah blah blah...

I totally agree with everything you said.

Though, there seems to be a continuity problem from author to author regarding the inherent nature of the drow. Ed Greenwood wrote the drow in Silverfall as inherently evil. They can only be good by constantly restraining themselves. Kind of like an addictive personality is always an addict, even after they quit and go through a twelve step program. This approach was kind of cool in its own way.

Lisa Smedman's entry in the WotSQ series is somewhat a quandry. She admits she didn't really research the drow and especially the clergy of Eilistraee, there are several serious gaffes fans have taken issue with. (eg. killing of the lycanthropes). Explaining away her writing post-mortem is just fan wangst. Still, even people who style themselves as good can be really ignorant. Ironically, Smedman's approach seems to be the most realistic, in my opinion. The immutable alignment system of D&D rears its ugly head here.

Salvatore- All drow are Darth Vader but Drizzt is Luke Skywalker.

I kind of like the idea of drow not being inherently evil but sensual, passionate, and moody as compared to their cousins.

Perhaps, if you'd ever bothered to actually read was RAS was saying about AE, the only thing that ever mattered to Entreri was CONTROL. COMPLETE AND UTTER CONTROL. What does drinking do? Get you drunk. What does getting drunk do? It slows your reflexes, kills your brain, all that la-de-dah they taught you in elementary school. In other words, it TAKES AWAY your control. WHICH ENTRERI HATES. Entreri never gets laid because that would mean giving into his passion; meaning he can't control it. Wow, there's that word again! CONTROL.

By no means is RAS saying it is worse to have sex with consensual partners.

Sorry for interrupting! I just found that a bit ridiculous.

In the beginning, Drizzt was looked at in the same way that Spiderman was. People feared and hated them both. They've also been approached by powerful figures in their universes.

Not only that, but they are both very popular. Drizzt is recognized as the most popular character in the Forgotten Realms, while Spiderman is probably the most popular character in the Marvel Universe. Although Drizzt has a small list of villians and advesaries. Spiderman has pretty much fought every villian (and hero) in the Marvel Universe.

...There's a part of me, deep down, that thinks something is seriously wrong with Drizzt's brain, and one day he's going to snap. I haven't figured out how to channel that into a fic, yet, but I will.

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