Sorry that isn't direct quotes, but closely enough to what is said.

Weird, in the anime, it's Tsuzuki who says that. One fic I read actually made them both genetic experiments who were related to each other, and while I can see that maybe for Muraki...well, not really. We know he inherited his traits from his mother.

Tsu was born in 1900, and DNA structure wasn't discovered until after WWII, so if there were experiments, they'd be magical ones, or something. Probably involving Enma and maybe the Count.

So confusing! I'll just say it's a metaphor.

In the manga, of what I have, Tsuzuki does mention something about Muraki and him being the same, like a dracula living within himself as well as Muraki.

I don't believe they are related in any way, but I do think they are something else than just normal human beings.

That day long ago when I saw your photo....I knew.You and I are of the same breed. We're abominations, the products of genetic experiments that violated the laws of nature.We who were born of darkness must walk in darkness [ there is no escape not for you...and not for me...] because ......we were never meant to exist.We're the sons of men who wear the black mark upon thier foreheads. WE ARE DESCENDANTS OF DARKNESS!

I'll write more later , am so tired right now and must have much needed sleep.

However, it would kill most of the appeal of the Mur/Tsu pairing for me if they were actually related.

Also, on a related note, b/c of all this talk about Tsu's genetic heritage, some people say that the Count is his real dad, which doesn't seem very likely to me.

Anyway There is one thing I can see about Muraki that was mentioned even by Tsuzuki in the manga. That Muraki is no ordinary human, there is something else there obliviously.

I mean, I was okay with the incest pairing in Angel Sanctuary, but come on.

Yes, if the Count was Tsu's dad (or equivalent), then that's pretty sick. I suppose you COULD interpret his advances as fatherly...but I sincerely hope that 'fatherly' never includes that. On top of that, I'd like to know what the Count is first, and that goes for Enma too.

For the Count, I series hope he is not Tsuzuki's father cause that would be too sick for me to handle. lol. After all, he flirts with Tsuzuki ever chance he gets and that doesn't seem like a father to me. As for Lord Emna being Tsuzuki's father, well that is a possible, but I don't think so. I think he has a thing for Tsuzuki as well and maybe knows a lot more than anyone about Tsuzuki. I really believe Muraki knows the dark secrets behind Tsuzuki.

I have this odd question since if I'm remembering right you never see the Count and Lord Emna together ever, I might be wrong. Could it be possible the Count and Lord Emna is the same person? Just some odd question that popped into my head.

However, I doubt they are. The Count mentions in book 9 that it's hard to leave the Hall of Candles, and his job as opposed to Enma's is made fairly clear (recording v. ruling, anyway...), and from what we see of their actual physical appearances, they don't look that much alike (Enma with the long hair, Count has short, plus, the latter wears gloves all the time).

About the whole 'human' question, if Tsu and/or Muraki really are some sort of weird mix, then what are they mixed with? Cuz if it is just a demon, then that might explain M's ability to summon and control dragons and such, but then you'd think Tsu would have a deliciously angsty breakdown every time he has to kill a demon, like Sag---bunch of a's and n's.

I wonder how M lost his eye...some people reverse pictures of him from the anime just see what he looks like when it's reversed...it actually changes a lot.

As for the human question, Tsuzuki doesn't have angsty breakdown every time he has to kill a demon, he gets that being forced to take human's lives all the times. It doesn't really go into his past, by if I'm remembering this right, he mentions in the manga one time when he was trapped in the Count's book, that he killed his sister. I believe his breakdowns exist from his past when he was alive. I still think he isn't all human.

Yeah, I also wondered about how Muraki lost his eye. It sort of points at least in the manga, that he lost it by his brother, Saki attacking him.

There are many guesses though on how it had happened.

One is that Muraki had scarified his eye in gaining power towards the black arts. Other suggest it is from his brother and then there is that hit that [and I use this from the reference of lyrebird’s story] he could be under a contract with a demon.

Though in the manga we do see Muraki still have his eyes in tact while having that discussion with Oryia when I believe they were still in school together. [ but that is only in manga version ] the anime and manga have completely different implications on Muraki’s past and we really can’t go by either as being the better one.

On account of Tsuzuki and Muraki being human or not, I believe that they are not.. There is just too much phrase in the book and anime pointing to them not being fully human, that in believing they were would be just redundant.

I also agree totally that Tsuzuki and Muraki are not human. You right, too much in the book and the anime points to they are something else.

The human question...it's definitely not very clear, and it's kind of interesting that, if M did inherit his inhuman traits from his mother, then that means that Saki is entirely human...yet managed to apparently almost kill off the 'whatever' Muraki line...kind of like Tsu back in the Meiji era, though I'm probably pushing it here.

I had this neat little theory that Tsuzuki is either hanyou or senzogairi by inugami blood. An inugami is a dog-based spirit of vengeance, often summoned by onmyouji, which has a tendency to come back and kill the summoner if he isn't careful; but they were also known to be able to take human form and interbreed. ( Actually, the father of main character of the kid's comic Inuyasha was probably based on these guys.) The last person known to have assembled the set of shikigami Tsuzuki wields was Abe no Seimei, who is popularly believed to have been half-fox, so that Tsuzuki is likewise hanyou seemed likely, but there's nothing foxlike about him.

Note that Muraki is genuinely flipping nuts, especially by volume eight, and doesn't actually have any way of knowing anything about Tsuzuki from before he was hospitalized outside his genetic code, so he may be projecting unfairly and they might be two quite different kinds. That reference to their fathers' bearing the black mark [of Cain] is the only mention ever made of either of their fathers anyway, so it's a pretty odd ** on his part. He tends to have irreconcilable opinions about things on different occasions, though. (Given that Tsuzuki can punch almost through bulletproof glass and Muraki can immobilize Tsuzuki, there is definitely something inhuman about his body, but whether he was born with those capacities or not we can't be sure.) The evil heredity symbolized by unnatural eyes was ripped off from Kaori Yuki's Cain series anyway, along with about three-fourths of all the decent ideas in YnM. Including the terrifying silver-haired doctor in white. Disraeli collects human organs and loathes the hero, though. (By the way, if you like YnM, I heartily recommend Count Cain and its sequel Godchild. Similar flavour, but heartier broth.)

Biggest problem with MurakixTsuzuki shipping to me, apart from the obvious Tsuzuki-hates-Muraki, is that Muraki doesn't show any signs of really wanting Tsuzuki to belong to him. He makes no long-range attempt to charm him--in fact, he seems to come on the scene with a calculated program to be hated. So he doesn't want Tsuzuki to come to him voluntarily. If he did, he would have tried to motivate him to do it--and he's good at manipulating people, you know? On the other hand, when he has Tsuzuki physically at his mercy, he lets him go. If he raped Tsuzuki the way he did Hisoka, the game would be over, and he's too attached to the idea of Tsuzuki to end it too early. Like I said, though, he's flipped out. His behavior is too generally inconsistent for a plotter, which he is, which means that he chooses a course of action on the spur of the moment, often with mixed and probably unexamined motives, and then does his planning toward the current goal. If he was saner, he would have kidnapped Tsuzuki back in Nagasaki in the third chapter.

You know, anyone blushes when they get groped. You call it embarrassment. Besides, sexual tension does not a romance make. I don't ship any other pairing, either, by the way. TsuzukixHisoka is a waste of a bond, as far as I'm concerned, ditto TsuzukixTatsumi. Besides, Tsuzuki's recorded opinion of homosexuality is "it's icky." While I don't applaud his lack of openmindedness, I like to keep people's opinions in mind.

There was a quite-interesting YnM/Sandman crossover on this site where the young Muraki's potential as a murderer was noticed by the Corinthian, a very stylish nightmare who eats eyeballs, and he took one eye but left him alive. Interestingly, the Oriya in that fic appeared to have a clearer understanding of what Muraki was going to become than Muraki did. Oh...oh, yes, whoever postulated MPD, MPD isn't like that at all. MPD is when a separate consciousness develops in you, generally in response to trauma, and sometimes occupies your body; another 'self.' The scenario you gave was more like...being of two minds about something. Chronically. At the level it's kind of insane, but it isn't MPD. It also isn't schizophrenia, which is hearing voices, as well as also likely seeing hallucinations/having delusions/generally suffering great confusion of thought.

The false eye is an amazing piece of work. I always imagined he made it himself. He appears to be mainly a surgeon, but if anyone is going to be the rennaissance man of medicine it'd be him.

Wow. I just talked a lot. I wonder if anyone will ever read it.

Muraki is different from the villains I am used to. In mech anime, RPG games, fantasy, and the like, the villains are usually megalomaniacal. It took a lot of getting used to, having a main villain that was so localized. His crimes are rather small (in comparison to the homicidal tendencies of other anime baddies), his goal is severely centralized and personal, yet his tactics are reminiscent of a world class schemer. If you think about it, his villainy only extends and affects a select few people, so why is he the big baddie? If this was an RPG, he would only be a lower level boss...based on the magnitude of his crimes. I had a difficult time accepting him as the main villain because of this.

I don't get the 'thing'. I tried, honestly, it isn't from a lack of effort.

Muraki, I can only understand if I judge him as I would a sociopath. His perception of right and wrong is severely warped. His justifications are a little brittle, as his past with Saki sounds more like the ramblings of a jealous brother than any true justification for his own crimes. According to the manga, it wasn't so much of Saki's actions that caused Muraki to become mad, but rather his presence. Muraki says that the peace of his house was disturbed the moment Saki arrived, then he knew the meaning of derision. Oddly, he didn't specify whose derision. I'm more inclined to blame the mother for his relationship with Saki. She was truly deranged, with her doll obsession and all - the legacy continues. I wouldn't put it past her to sow a seed of hatred in her own son for the child (Saki) that wasn't hers. I am not trying to defend Saki, but I think he gets a little too much credit for Muraki's derision. It is all speculation at this point, as I believe Matsushita-san could have been clearer about his past. Then again, I also believe that the fans read more into it than she intended, and at times I find a better explanation for Muraki on forums than in the source material.

I knew his sense of right and wrong, concept of reality, and awareness of social acceptance was off when he went on a date with Tsuzuki while keeping Hisoka hostage. Did he really suspect Tsuzuki to focus on him in a situation like that? Nobody in their right mind thinks like Muraki (then maybe he's in his left). Again, being jealous of your own hostage for detracting the attention from your unwilling date.... I just don't know what to make of him. I've always been good at putting puzzles together. However, with his character, I feel like I've been given puzzle pieces that are from different sets. :(

I'll say it again, he is 100% certifiably deranged and unpredictable. To characterize him any other way is unreasonable to me.

His poetic-ism erupts at the oddest moments: finding rape beautiful; laying a trail of corpses for the one he loves, then arranging a thousand roses. o.O Without the grotesque imagery, he sounds a bit corny. I'm almost likely to suspect that he enjoys harlequin novels. It's so flowery. Maybe I'm being unfair because I really don't like it when guys try that stuff on me.

One thing I can commend him on, even if I am in disagreement with a lot of his character, is his impressive villainy. Even if it is small scale, he has the markings of a world class schemer. It isn't just his flexible schemes - it's the poetic irony. He lays out a trap that is most emotionally damaging to the characters. Hisoka screwed up his vampire scheme, so he'll just twist this unforeseen problem to benefit him and use the boy to lure Tsuzuki. It's malicious. Whether intentionally, or not, he finds the most poetic counterattack.

It's a shame his ultimate goal was so lame. I apologize, but it was. In the beginning he was more appealing. He established himself very well. But every arc, as his villainy slowly became more random, his character just degraded. I don't even know what his goal was anymore. He first established that he found himself helpless in the face of death, that no matter what he did, his patients died. I thought, 'perfect'. He is a good antagonist for shinigami, a disgruntled, deranged doctor. Maybe, I thought, he wanted to upset the balance of life and death, as he considered death his enemy. However, that goal was replaced by his obsession with cell reproduction...so he could revive and kill his brother? I couldn't believe that was the culmination of all his supernatural misdeeds: He can summon beasts, control people's will, revive the dead, steal life-force JUST to cut off the head of a Shinigami and replace it with his brother's! Why in the world did he set himself up as the ultimate enemy of the ministry for such a personal (and weird) goal? I really hate his actions...just hate them. I probably would have accepted him better without the whole, 'I'm actually want to cut your head off thing.' I think Matsushita-san 'insight' for Muraki provided more questions than answers. I just wished that he would have done things differently; he just doesn't deserve to be the main villain. I am not asking for world domination, just something more grand than that!

I will commend him on another thing, being able to stand on the guard railing of a sinking boat, while a helicopter hovers behind him. That is talent (quite impossible, but talent). It's ultimate proof that he made a deal with the devil.

I am very opposed to shipping Villain x Hero romantically; I also find no joy in pairing personality foils. But this is not really a pairing thread. Though, I see a lot of fans who are also Muraki/Tsuzuki shippers.

"I had this neat little theory that Tsuzuki is either hanyou or senzogairi by inugami blood. An inugami is a dog-based spirit of vengeance, often summoned by onmyouji, which has a tendency to come back and kill the summoner if he isn't careful; but they were also known to be able to take human form and interbreed. ( Actually, the father of main character of the kid's comic Inuyasha was probably based on these guys.) "

That's funny because I had this little plot bunny that Kikyo was Emna, and that she established the Ministry, and that Tsuzuki was a distant descendant of Inuyasha's. That explained the non-human DNA, his doggie form, and Emna's unexplained animosity for the shinigami. However, the last episode I saw of Inuyasha, was the one when Kikyo was accompanied by her own shikigami, so that might have had some influence. It's been so long since I've watched Inuyasha; is it over yet?

"You know, anyone blushes when they get groped. You call it embarrassment. Besides, sexual tension does not a romance make. I don't ship any other pairing, either, by the way. TsuzukixHisoka is a waste of a bond, as far as I'm concerned, ditto TsuzukixTatsumi. Besides, Tsuzuki's recorded opinion of homosexuality is "it's icky." While I don't applaud his lack of openmindedness, I like to keep people's opinions in mind."

Sexual innuendo + Public setting = embarrassment. I can testify. I was harrassed by three men who followed me, whispering into my ear what they would like to do with me in bed. I stayed on the public streets. They backed off once I walked to a busier part of town. By the time I reached home, I was very red. Nobody told me I secretly wanted them. My feelings were mostly anxiety and anger.

I'm surprised fans automatically jump to that conclusion...wait, I'm not :P. You know it is odd how Muraki makes Tsuzuki blush, then he goes around embarrassing Hisoka. He really should know better. Yeah, I did find the whole 'icky'' thing odd, especially how propositional he sounds with other characters. Again, you would think he would know better...after being harassed by the doctor.

Publically, I'm a Tsuzuki + Hisoka shipper (they already act like an old married couple). However, privately I am also against it because it is hard to imagine them taking it further (Why I have nothing posted for Yami no Matsuei. I am used to having my naturally compatable couples, damn it). I am to the point I think I'll just jump ship. TatsumexNagare OTP. :D

Note: The major difference between a TsuzukixMuraki story and a TsuzukixHisoka story is just role reversal. Either Tsuzuki is the chick who can not think straight until Muraki makes him feel good, or it's Hisoka who who can not function without Tsuzuki's love. So I don't think any side can claim literary supremacy.

"And the all white is to miss lead people. In the anime series, it says it makes him look like an angel. Which it does, but he really isn't. It is great how they made Muraki wear all white because from start you think he is the good guy and then it back fires on you, and he is really the evil guy."

I know I am kind of digging up a grave. However, this is a common misconception with western viewers. (Why didn't I get to this earlier?!) We have crossed a cultural boundary here. Colors, in Eastern philosophy, are viewed differently. White is the color of death, being linked to the cold, harsh, unwelcoming winter. Any anime/game character that is decked out in white, with the addition of white/silver hair is usually seen as a cold or distant character. More than likely, the white-haired man is the villain: Sephiroth, Aion, Rosiel, Lloyd, Ansem, Xemnas, Kuja, Every Wild Arms villain! Char, Zechs (arguably bleach-blond but it looks white to me). White haired vampires are also common. It's almost like Muraki has a big neon sign over his head, 'Warning Unsympathetic Killer: Stay far away'. I'm used to fighting the ultimate baddie in RPG games with white hair. I am more surprised by protagonist characters with white hair. I suspect that Tsubaki's mother is Brittish or something because of her concept of pure white angels.

Out of all the random accusations, that one was actually the least unnerving. I am really curious what provoked this:`

"Hisoka is much too much of a wimp[1] and whiner[2] and too young for Tsuzuki...Tsuzuki can't be the seme in that kind of relationship [3]...he needs someone who can care and look after him, not the other way around. /Muraki is sooo definitely capable of loving Tsuzuki...just read some of the fics![4] Hisoka, to me, comes off as too naive and bratty.[5] Not a thing to have in a relationship. /there just is not enough fun when you read about a boring whiny kid . there no how should I say this...excitment![6]/ First, Hisoka can't understand Tsuzuki all that well. It doesn't really go into details about Tsuzuki's past, but you get the hint of him killing a lot of people. Now, think about this, would Hisoka really stay by his side if he knew that Tsuzuki was once like Muraki?[7] Second, Hisoka acts younger than his age anyways and Tsuzuki mother hens him.[8]"

This has tested my resolve as a balanced negotiator (I'm trying). I actually ran into this thread before, when I began scooping out Yami no Matsuei stuff. A lot of the comments here have set me off to a degree where I would not give Muraki fics even a glance. It completely alienated me as a 'Hisoka' fan, and probably turned me off of Muraki x Tsuzuki fics for a very long time. If Muraki fans can instigate unsupported accusations about Hisoka..., why should I give Muraki, who has exceedingly worse, deplorable flaws, a chance?That's what I thought. Which is unfair of me. If I have learned anything, not all fans are alike. And sometimes we say things in the passion of the moment that can be offensive, but are not necessarily how we think - at least, I hope not. Thankfully, I was redirected to a Muraki/Tsuzuki fic that treated Hisoka's character with justice.

[3] Firstly, Seme/Uke stereotypes so do not fly with me. Is where they put their D*** really that central to character development and relationships? ^.^ Anyway, why can't you read a seme Tsuzuki? It's not so hard, with the different aspects of his near-bipolar personality to imagine him seme and uke / straight or bi-curious. And I'll read them both with equal enjoyment...unless it's plotless sex.

[2] How is it that I can read a summary of Tsuzuki and Hisoka traits, and Hisoka is called the whiner? When has he ever whined unfairly? When has he not had a reason to complain? And how many times has he allowed the past to hinder him? If there's one bad trait about Tsuzuki, it is his unmentioned past with a healthy amount of angst and self-pity. And we imagine it has to be pretty bad, because Hisoka had been raped and suffered for three years before dieing...yet never makes a peep about it (You know, without Muraki rubbing it in). Tsuzuki has to top that! The sad thing is, after reading about the Kurosaki family curse...he was better off being raped and murdered! But no, he's a whiner :S. Really? It's quite hard for me to imagine, as he is an introvert, and as an introvert he keeps things to himself - family tradition. It is almost unhealthy how much he doesn't purge!

[3] Wimp? Escuse me. He doesn't fall to pieces after having the memory of his death returned to him. He rose to the occasion, despite odds - a severely injured partner, with nothing but a talking bird as back up, facing a three headed dragon that would have had most people ** their pants. Yeah, he took them on. Damn, I almost forgot to mention that he lost a lot of blood AND was held hostage for a day or so, vertically, on a bed. I would be complaining about sore joints...at the very least.

After being butchered by Tsuzuki/Sagatanas (having his eye gauged out in the manga), he pulls himself together and faces the demon responsible with a smug smile on his face. Oh, and when his spell (soul catcher) broke, he did not fall into a pit of dispair. He tried again! Granted, it seemed foolish to use a spell that seemed to have no effect, but that's called resolve.

But wait, he sobs after witnessing a girl he grew close to get shot; her only fault was loving the wrong man. Geez, what a wimp. :P I mean why would he care for her; it wasn't like he got some.

AGAIN he finds himself at the wrong end of a pointy object, Oriya's sword. I mean he lost the fight, so that must mean he's a wimp? Losing does not equal pathetic. Oriya was a better swordman, but Hisoka didn't waver.

"I wanted you to see what real courage is, instead of getting the idea that courage is a man with a gun in his hand. It's when you know you're licked before you begin but you begin anyway and you see it through no matter what. You rarely win, but sometimes you do." Excerpt Atticus from To Kill a Mockingbird.

Unless, the popular idea of strength is how many magic tricks a character can do, then yeah, Hisoka's a wimp for not summoning magical beasts like Tsuzuki and Muraki to do his dirty work. ;)

Tsuzuki wants to give up on life and summons Touda's flames. Oh, noos, those flames can even kill a Shinigami! Well, Tsuzuki wants to die anyway, why risk your life to rescue someone who has given up on his own life? I do not know what's braver, him jumping into a hellhole to save his partner, or him staying with his partner even as the building crumbles.

Gensoukai Arc: Kurikara scorches his skin, leaving it to rot and fester. Yet, bed-ridden, he still manages to stand on his own and save Kojiro's life. The Tengu remark on his outstanding healing abilities as he was able to defeat Kurikara's mark, but he would have never been able to heal himself without the will. You know, after that he could have sulked about Riko's sacrifice (which was sad), but he decides to honor his cactus's memory by amending his mistakes. Then he decides to tame Kurikara for the right reasons, to stop the war, and to make sure Riko's sacrifice wasn't in vane.

Wimp? How many times has Hisoka stood up after being beaten down to a bloody pulp. No matter how much you push he keeps coming back. His resiliency is central to his character. If Tsuzuki and Muraki are constantly lamenting about the past, then he has his mind set on the future. He has been protected by Tsuzuki, and he has found himself in a position where he was helpless...which is completely contradictory to his character. He doesn't want to be helpless, and he tries desperately to move past his own weaknesses. For heaven sake, what does it take to get a little respect?!

Unfortunately, a lot of Tsu/His fics are in partial blame for portraying Hisoka like a wimp.

[7] Hisoka is very loyal. Why wouldn't he accept Tsuzuki? Tsuzuki was being possessed by Sagatanas. Despite the demon's insistence that Tsuzuki had committed terrible sins, Hisoka still wouldn't abandon him. He even went as far as to judge Sagatanas. I can understand how Muraki accepts what Tsuzuki is, even desiring it. Isn't it just as obvious that Hisoka accepts who Tsuzuki is, despite the fact that their personalities naturally cause friction? Need I mention that he jumped into a scorching hell-fire with no hesitation?

[6] I'm still in a state of disbelief, especially considering how much Muraki reminded me of Hisoka at his age. Not surprisingly, I find a younger Muraki more interesting. I would rather read a fic where he was at one point a lot like Hisoka, and at one point, teetering between good and evil. Then I want to see what made him trip into insanity. Because presently, Muraki doesn't have that internal conflict of good and evil that I find interesting in a character. To think, once upon a time, he and Hisoka had a lot in common. No wonder Hisoka is terrified of becoming like him. I don't find Hisoka boring in the least. When I look for a good characterization, I look for characters with a fair amount of personal conflict, and Hisoka has enough to keep me entertained for a long time. :)

Otherwise, I have read Muraki fics. To be quite honest, the majority bore me. I don't like gratuitous PWP's (few can pull them off tastefully). I do not do fluffy romances, especially with a villain and his victim (I can not even read fluffy Hisoka/Tsuzuki fics). Non-con, no interest. I've read one good Murak/Tsuzuki (on-going), and a few gems involving Muraki and other characters. The best fics, to me, are not the ones where he's wooing our poor helpless hero with his smexiness, but the ones that have small insights to his past, and his connections to the few people who actually care for him, Oriya, Ukyo, Dr. Satomi (before the stabbing, of course), and even Tsubaki. It's a good thing we all have different tastes.

[5] [8] Really? It's not like Hisoka's perfect. He is moody, bad at communicating, has little to no patience, very bad people skills, sensitivity to the elements, and I think anger management would benefit him. He is an unsocial grump, but when has he acted like a brat? Are people just projecting Muraki? But I love my socially repellent characters with a heart of gold *hugs Terazuma*. He doesn't get enough lines! Honestly, a person doesn't have to like his character, but is it so hard for fans to throw away their preconceived notions and bias? I really would prefer if people dissed Hisoka for actual canon reasons. That way, I do not have to write a mile long essay. Though, I do love my essays.

You know, if this was one of my RPG games, Hisoka would be the main character. You always begin with the newcomer who has little experience, but great potential, and the will to never give up. And when you have got him to level 99, he kicks so much a**. It is fun to begin with the rookie and watch his progress. Is his inexperience as a shinigami somehow translated to naivete? You know, even Tsuzuki was a rookie at one point.

It is at this moment, that I will like to remind people that I am debating. Nothing I write is personal. I actually took a few months to mellow out, after reading this thread, to draw my own conclusions. I feel comfortable enough to not randomly shout accusations. Most comments, if not a direct response to a previous quote, is generalized. I am making observations about the Yami no Matsuei community as a whole.

" Ukyo is a cipher...to me at least. Hardly worth mentioning and so, not important to Muraki -- Ukyou was not that important of a character to not even be added to the anime, even if she was mentioned in the manga."

Ukyo fills in a gap for me, makes me believe there might be a small part of him that is caring and devoted. Otherwise, all he shows with Tsuzuki is obsession and lechery, and all he does is use Oriya and Dr. Satomi. There has to be someone in the world he hasn't screwed over!

Besides, the anime was budgeted. If they knew what was good for them they would have given Terazuma and Wakaba bigger parts *cracks knuckles*!!

I admit, I do not like Muraki. He is a rapist, *period*. I do have personal issues with the subject. So unless anyone can convince me he is not a rapist, then I will continue disliking him. I will not say he is dumb; he is quite clever and strategic - unfortunately, for our heroes. I will not claim he is a worthless character; all stories need a villain. I can not say anything about his looks other than the eye is creepy. I will not claim to dislike him for any other reason than his crimes (some of which do not compute), and for romanticizing rape like some dime-store novel. That's really it. He is a good, despicable villain, but a less than admirable character.

I always thought that if you love a character, you should love them especially for their flaws, not just sweep them under the rug. That's why I like to favorite characters with admirable flaws. Most fics white wash Muraki's flaws in order to paint him as the misunderstood anti-hero. It's almost like some people can not apprecriate the effort it took to create such a villain. How can you portray a character you should oppose as a decent human being? That is the question I've asked myself. How can I portray him to appeal to me? The 'thing' is, for me, trying to figure that out. :/

If nothing, I hope I can help some people understand my woes with general characterization. It is not so much the pairing that gets to me, rather the execution. Actually, reading the fics has almost killed any hopes; whether it be Mur/Tsu or His/Tsu, Waff smells like Waff to me. Sometimes the characters are unrecognizable outside of their roles as seme and uke - which is why I am so opposed to those terms; they completely destroy character. I am sorry, my glass is half empty :(.

I'll admit, I have very high standards. Characterization and believability are very high on my list. Though, they are not a priority with others. So maybe all of my rambling is just white noise to some.

Why am I kicking this dead thread? Some of the comments are over a year old... I feel I have jumped in too late with too little. Yeah, too little. I can go on about my observations of Muraki, his fanbase, his connection to Hisoka, and his fanbase's connection to Hisoka. Actually, my original response was longer.

Wow, Flame, you nutter! And I thought I was bad. Look at the size of that. I actually read it, you know, but I don't think people normally would. Matsushita has no control of her writing; she slaps things together with illogical gusto, and it's definitely true that Muraki in volume eight was a pathetic ridiculousness. Most of the volume was a little like suffering from schizophrenia, not that Muraki does. The reality of the story was in shards. Like I've said, Muraki's such an unreliable reporter on himself that you can swing his story a billion ways. Matsushita did make some good moves with him, especially when she put him in his early thirties so that his personality wasn't 'fixed' like it is in those guys that are several hundred years old. (A man in a white suit is almost always a bad guy, because of death, but some Japanese do use white for purity, especially if it's a woman. And for white hair there's always people like the hero of Gintama. And aliens, a lot. And old people, but that's a different matter altogether.)

His villainy is indeed relatively small (and, worse, in the end really flat--it's because Matsushita wanted the kidnapping and so on to happen, and needed a motive, but had neither the wish nor the publishing leeway to have Muraki push his molestation to a higher rating, and have the hero raped or almost raped in real-time, so she came up with a dumb idea that almost sort-of hangs together on the fly.) Although that organ farm was both pretty large-scale and gave the impression that his life is full of such gory ventures... He doesn't want to rule or destroy the world, too right. Too much responsibility in ruling anything, and what do you do with yourself if the world's destroyed and there's no one left to take things out on, ne? He's a hater, but not like, say, Knives, who hate universally and want to get rid of all of what they hate; he's a very personal, hands-on kind of guy.

I'd say...take it like this: In the real world of murderers, most serial killers, who kill persons they don't know well for the sake of killing them, are men. Most people who kill people they know for personal reasons are men, too, actually, but most women who do commit murder kill people they know very well, usually their spouses or children. In fictional-villain terms, the guys who kill hundreds of people at a go and end worlds are like the serial killers, and guys like Muraki who kill one-on-one, in person, are like the other set. His type are rather more common in women's comics. Could be a connection.

Tsuzuki is also pathetic, and Hisoka is not, except in the sense where his life has been such a run of miseries that you say 'what a pathetic story' when you get to the end. Anyone with a brain knows that, but I don't know how many people bother to apply their brains to something like a girl's comic with gothic influences whose own author doesn't take it seriously. Hisoka almost never smiles, and has never to my knowledge laughed; possibly the impression was derived from there that he's a downer, (true, but he has good reason), and he tends to grouch about annoying things, which combination along with him having the 'girl role' (people usually hate the girl and call her whiny, whatever her personality) was translated into the imprecation 'whiny.' He annoyed me when he went to the imaginary world and started making a fool of himself over 'strength;' it was the kind of thing that, if he actually had been the hero of a fighting story and destined to level up, would have been just a setup for a small rebuke for overreaching himself at worst, but since he's the small guy in a comedy-and-angst girls' manga with the hero for a partner who, being ridiculous in most arenas, only stays his equal by having such high combat stats (and a charisma count of a bajillion), it looked like obvious doom. But that's the worst transgression of his I can bring to mind.

'Kay, hope you auto-subscribed and will read this, cuz otherwise it's a waste of energy.

Wow, Flame, you nutter! And I thought I was bad. Look at the size of that. I actually read it, you know, but I don't think people normally would.

Woah, you really read it? I kind of feel sorry for you. I had that huge text on my computer for a day then returned to it and edited parts out even, so it is about 3/4 of the size. If others don't read it, that would make me sad. I originally wrote to let off some steam. Then I realized that I had typed some pretty beneficial things, so I deleted some more colorful parts and posted it. You should have saw my original seme/uke rant. :D

One thing I have to let out. Matsushita did not know what a good story idea she had. I loved the setting of Yami no Matsuei, especially the addition of the Shikigam Realm. I could not help but to fall in love with the idea of a bureaucracy in purgatory. The orignal character dynamic is very good as well. The story could have just flowed easier. The characters at times shrink into themselves and go back into old habits, instead of developing beyond those habits. Even Hisoka, as mentioned in the beginning of the Gensoukai arc, collapses into himself...AND he was the one who kept me sane the whole show! It was then that I focused more on Terazuma and, I can not help it, Nagare. I just love those unfortunate Kurosaki men, except for Iawo - I will punish him!

I am just hating all the slack I am getting from my guy friends for liking a 'girl' comic. Why is that such an insult? Only one of them is nice to me about it; he gets into yuri. Yes, I am used to more global villains, so I might be judging Muraki on a different level than I should. The difference is that his crimes invite a more emotional response; they are personal, and you can put a face on his victims. Most shounen anime just tally the victims...destroying one town is killing countless of people: women, children, babies. Yet we respond more to Muraki shooting one girl. But that girl has a name, has a past with him, and had a bond with him. It's definitely different. Watch any of the Slayers shows (granted, it is parodying fantasy anime). Lina probably kills more innocent bystanders with a misplaced DragonSlave.

Muraki's such an unreliable reporter on himself that you can swing his story a billion ways.

^.^ That's why I never take his word for it. When I am confronted with an interpretable scene, I interpret. It's set up to make Saki look like the bad guy because Muraki is so obsessed with him Then again Muraki is so ideological. Perhaps, Saki's mere existence could upset him, that it was a sin he was even born. It doesn't make sense to us, but this is Muraki.

A man in a white suit is almost always a bad guy, because of death, but some Japanese do use white for purity, especially if it's a woman. And for white hair there's always people like the hero of Gintama. And aliens, a lot. And old people, but that's a different matter altogether

Aliens? Really? I can't think of any women in white, so I couldn't reference that. Memory fails. At times, I remember girls wearing all white, but it isn't a part of their natural wardrobe, except Kanna. And I only remember one female with white/silver hair that was good: Avril - Wild Arms 5. Though, she had amnesia. Before that she was the Ice Queen. From Yami no Matsuei, Maria has white hair only when she is a vampire.

Muraki push his molestation to a higher rating, and have the hero raped or almost raped in real-time, so she came up with a dumb idea that almost sort-of hangs together on the fly.) Although that organ farm was both pretty large-scale and gave the impression that his life is full of such gory ventures... He doesn't want to rule or destroy the world, too right. Too much responsibility in ruling anything, and what do you do with yourself if the world's destroyed and there's no one left to take things out on, ne?

But Hisoka was raped....oh, oh you're talking about Tsuzuki? Guess who is the hero in my head? But did she really want to take it that far? It almost seemed like she decided to provide fanservice via Tsuzuki and Muraki then decided to end it to further the plot (kind of), so she rushed to put Muraki out of commission.

Nah, I never thought him capable of world domination, not this world at least. He wouldn't care for it. With his profession and lifestyle, I believe he's rather attached to the fine life (and harlequin novels), why would he destroy that? But he could have at least wanted the elixir of life or something...spread his hate into the future.

hands-on kind of guySo I have read in fic. :)

In fictional-villain terms, the guys who kill hundreds of people at a go and end worlds are like the serial killers, and guys like Muraki who kill one-on-one, in person, are like the other set. His type are rather more common in women's comics. Could be a connection.

I'm starting to grow familiar with these types. Though, Angel Sanctuary had a villain who was megalomaniacal and personal on his free time. Muraki is just the personal type of villain. However, his level of involvement in the supernatural, his abilities, and his involvement with the inner workings of the ministry, makes me want him to have a larger goal. At this point, I do not care if the goal makes sense. I think he is delusional, anyway. Either he has bigger schemes,or he found the information about the ministry by accident and decided to use it personally. Few fics address his motives for gaining power. If all he really wanted was to revive and kill Saki, his goal could have been accomplished more effectively if he worked in a lab orsimply killed and smuggled bodyparts. Like on Queen Camille.

Actually, my favorite part in that arc, after the body smuggling, was what Muraki said to Tsuzuki when he wants to know his plot. "I have a life outside of you" - paraphrase. Basically, he was on the Queen Camille on business, not legal business, but business.

Anyone with a brain knows that, but I don't know how many people bother to apply their brains to something like a girl's comic with gothic influences whose own author doesn't take it seriously. Hisoka almost never smiles, and has never to my knowledge laughed; possibly the impression was derived from there that he's a downer, (true, but he has good reason), and he tends to grouch about annoying things, which combination along with him having the 'girl role' (people usually hate the girl and call her whiny, whatever her personality) was translated into the imprecation 'whiny.'

I kind of wished I would not overthink things too much. I shouldn't with a manga that even has the author pointing out her own plot-holes. "Tsuzuki, why don't you just fly?" She kind of exempted herself from all the fan-letters that are sure to ask the obvious questions. I thought that was kind of genius. Yeah, so some parts don't make sense, but she already pointed it out. I think that sometimes, this manga/anime, despite its obvious plot holes, should demand a little more thought from the fans. Because I honestly love the setting and character dynamic. Or maybe the other fans are smarter than I am for avoiding this headache.

In a Relena thread, I was asked if there are any male characters that invite so much unneeded contempt from fans as the female lead usually does. My first thought went to Hisoka. I don't translate little blurbs of 'I'm so hot' or him complaining about Tsuzuki's ummm...oddities as whiny. He is only responding to his environment. He reminds me more of the standard 'stoic'. Or as TVTropes call him 'the unfunny'. He is there to provide comedy relief, via deadpan comments.

Actually, my first response was to backmouth Muraki, but that would have accomplished nothing. I would rather analyze him with no personal vendetta attached. That was why, after reading those comments, I took so long to respond. I find that a lot of negative opinions of Hisoka are solely in the Mur/Tsu community. I'll say about half of the community want to see him flung to a distant planet (no real physical harm...just not there to meddle things up). A very small portion bastardize him almost comically. Then the other part don't mind him or like him and Mur/Tsu.

Oh my goodness...it just went on and on, didn't it?

Nah, still like Muraki, hate Hisoka. You can't analyze something to death about impulsive emotions. Just me, though.

Oh my goodness...it just went on and on, didn't it?

Call me the Energizer Bunny. I am that reliable. But I can go on longer.

Now, I am a little depressed. I don't think I made the intention of my posting quite clear. Although, I would absolutely love to have so much control as to dictate which character a person likes, I never intended to change any ones favorite. Like or dislike who you like. I even admitted that there are aspects of Hisoka's personality that are not so admirable, but absolutely none of them were mentioned in this thread as reasons for hating him. Furthermore, all of them were baseless. His accusations are generic bashing that usually accompany the female lead. Since there is no female lead, the hate had to go to one character, I suppose.

I am also surprised that you think I'm over-analysing. The only thing I analysed were my own opinions, and possibly Muraki's past with Saki. I am a constant self-analyzer. But doesn't that make me a reliable source for character interpretation? Where I lack in syntax and composition, I make up for in solid character interpretation. I try to set my own personal vendettas aside to appreciate all of a fandom. If there's a character I do not like, I try twice as hard to find a good quality about them. And if there is a person who stands as my adversary in a debate, I will try twice as hard to be reasonable. I have admired people, who have stood opposition to me in a debate, who can present their case passionately and respectively. Some have managed to sway my opinion in their favor, while others just offer me some insight into characters I have never considered. I have learned to approach any forum/thread this way, especially when I stand against the grain.

In comparison to some, I might have over-analyzed. But when your teachers have constantly hammered in the importance of solid reasoning, in early childhood, it becomes habit. One of my memorable teachers told me my book report wasn't good enough because my opinions were not supported - I was just eleven. So I can not escape this mindset.

Bad observation: Muraki is bad.

Good observation: Muraki commits acts {rape, murder} that are considered unacceptable in most modern societies.

It basically says the same thing, except the first is opinion and the second one fact. When you develop a habit of breaking down your opinions to fact, the text will be longer. But the second one is not over-analyzed, just a more detailed observation.

Everything else was mild observation at best. Their characterizations are so blunt that I did not really see the need to analyze Muraki's actions nor Hisoka's. I truly believe Muraki does what he does because he believes he can, and that he can simply wash away his sins. There are only two conclusions to draw from that: he's completely delusional or he knows something the rest of us do not. Choose your Muraki carefully.

You can't analyze something to death about impulsive emotions.

Could you elaborate on the second part because that confuses me? I don't think I even mentioned impulsive emotions. Aren't impulses usually caused by extreme emotions?

I am an odd one, I know, but please bear with me.

Thinking 'impulsive feelings' refers to the speakers own feelings about the characters; as in, they don't feel they need to have any good reason to love or hate Hisoka or Muraki. The fact that she said 'why don't you just fly after him?' acknowledging the problem without fixing it, always really irritated me. Matsushita's attitude in general irritates me; one of many good reasons that I try not to take this fandom too seriously. XD What is this 'unfunny?' The one who provides comic relief through deadpan comments is, traditionally, technically referred to as the 'straight man.'

It's kind of depressing when you quote big chunks of what I say but then rather than responding to what I said just keep talking about your own opinions on the topic with reference to general public's opinions, so I don't feel like saying any more just now. Don't worry, by the way, you're not an 'odd one,' just talkative and self-absorbed. But there are a lot of people like that online. Me, too.

Well, personally, when I see a humongous post that goes into minute-by-minute detail of a character that I enjoy or a pairing I enjoy, and the gist of it is that one of my favorite villains is nothing to get excited over, I get a little bristly. Mind you, I'm not against anyone having opinions, that's what makes these message boards interesting. However, you've come across the Muraki fans board. Again, bristly.

First off, Hisoka. You can post all of Hisoka's admiral qualities, his past, his pain, his strengths, etc. But I still don't like him. I just don't. And I can't explain it. It's one of my impulsive emotions. To me, he comes across as whiny, immature and bossy. Don't worry, I've directed my hate to a female in the cast so there's more than enough for Hisoka. Again, pure emotion here. No logic to it which may come down to simple-mindedness but when I feel a certain way about a character, no amount of debate is going to change it. That's not to say I'm not interested in reading a fic with him in it where he grows and gets complex. I'm always open for that.

If there is a character you don't like, it's quite admirable to want to delve deeper and discover why a character acts the way they do, what motivates them. That's the fun of reading and writing these stories. But there's only so much I'm willing to pick apart.

As for Muraki. Listen, I'm totally inept at my stance. To defend it would be feeble on my part. I'm not eloquent or articulate enough to go point by point about the man. Yes, he's horrible, he's committed rape, murder and who knows what else. But when I've read other people's stories about his background, his past...it's fascinating. Of course, it doesn't excuse, but, again I go by those impulsive emotions of mine. I like what I like.

Accept emotion. Accept that people like what they like for no other reason than that. To pick apart and weigh it and scrutinize and analyze and hold it up to the light and try to put it in a category, a neat little slot, takes the fun out of it, I think.

Muraki and Tsuzuki forever.

I'm sorry if that depresses you. I won't do it anymore.

It's kind of depressing when you quote big chunks of what I say but then rather than responding to what I said just keep talking about your own opinions on the topic with reference to general public's opinions

I really don't even realize I'm doing it. Honestly. :/ I'll try to be careful from now on.

Jollyolly: Please, if you like a character, like them. And even though, I would prefer it if you gave some characters a chance, you just can not change that you don't like them. But some things that were mentioned, were not even true. If you can't explain why you like a character, then why try? You are right, I was bristled. I was bristled because of comments made, and in turn, I bristled some feathers. I could have claimed that I was just stating an opinion, but I knew that opinion would invite negative reactions. Just like you. Negative actions can only invite other negative reactions. For that I am sorry. I was deliberately trying to ruffle up feathers. I could hide it behind calm observations, but it was the same attempt you made, except you were less deceptive about it. So, I'll just let it drop, and use this debate board to discuss about Muraki and just Muraki. In return, can you just not try to bash Hisoka? Maybe we can even find something more agreeable to talk about? I am no good at apologies.

Don't worry, by the way, you're not an 'odd one,' just talkative and self-absorbed. But there are a lot of people like that online. Me, too.

I guess :(. So not used to having my bad qualities thrown back at me. But have you noticed that there are more people like that online than in real life?

Hahah. Sorry. Well, it's easier to be barefaced online. In real life, when we do the equivalent of that kind of post, people walk away. ^_^;

Muraki is great fun; all broken and twisted but still 'pretty.' Taking things to pieces is an alright hobby...being offended at having something you value taken to pieces is a legitimate reaction...

On the other hand, Jolly's stance elevates feeling to the status of a 'pure truth,' since it doesn't need to be understood or justified, which is a legitimate viewpoint on the nature of truth, right? People's emotions can have no bearing on reality, and lead to misdirected violence or destructive attachment, but the emotion can still be considered a 'real thing' around the foundation of which a person can 'exist.' Flame's take on truth is much more closely tied to conventional reality, but Jolly's objection is legitimate. Once all the 'things' have been taken to pieces, there's not much of a foundation to work with. But it's really hard to be comfortable with a blanket strategy of believing that what seems to you to be true at first glance is right. (Oh--when I used to have Death Note debates on another site, it seemed that Light Yagami was morally this kind of person. See, dangerous.) Opinions of fictional characters won't really hurt anyone either way, but in terms of life policy, there are pitfalls any way you look at 'truth.'

Come on...no one was amused? 'Straight man?' Do you know how good a five-minute pun you can spin out of that these days?

No apology necessary.

I tend to get a little stiff and prickly as far as my likes and dislikes. Also, because I've written some stories about Muraki and Tsuzuki (which are quite fluffy and romantic and totally lame) so when I saw your post, well...I got into defensive mode. And it explains my one-liner post. Too mad to think at that time. But I'm calmer now and I appreciate the fact that you brought up some points. But whether it be fact or opinion, it'll stoke some feathers and that was your aim, ne?

I won't bash Hisoka...well, not very much. And I know Hisoka-lovers are out there and they congregate and that's fine and good. I just keep myself out of that and focus and these Muraki boards to get my fill. Is there something we can discuss and agree upon? I don't know. I'm willing to try as it's been awhile since I've discussed and bantered on these boards. No need to censor yourself either. I can take it. I just count to ten and come back. :)

Hahah. Sorry. Well, it's easier to be barefaced online. In real life, when we do the equivalent of that kind of post, people walk away. ^_^;

Apology not necessary. I'm not going to say your comment didn't sting; it did. You were very blunt, but true. I was getting preachy and into myself. I was to a point where arguing the text was all that was important to me. There was no consideration on my part. It's easy to fall into bad habits online. Just don't do it again :P

Come on...no one was amused? 'Straight man?'

Now I get it. :D Too late? : l

Are you trying to analyze Jollyolly and me? I think you are. However, no person can have just one mindset. Like Light (I am really bad with his character, but I'll try). At first, it seemed like he was personally conflicted with his own sense of justice and what is perceived as justice. Granted, it didn't take him very long to exempt himself from society's social boundaries... Is there a way to draw comparisons between Light and Muraki because Muraki can also be considered an emotionally responsive character then?

I tend to get a little stiff and prickly as far as my likes and dislikes.

See, there's some common ground :P

I won't bash Hisoka...well, not very much.

No fair! Who am I kidding? Even if I was a tad bristled, I couldn't help but smirk when you called him bossy. He's so bossy for a rookie, no? I do feel sorry for Tsu sometimes, then there are other times he needs someone to kick him back in line.

Also, because I've written some stories about Muraki and Tsuzuki (which are quite fluffy and romantic and totally lame)

I am a general critic of all romance and fluff. I know you feel as if no apologies are necessary, but I am sorry. God, empathy is a **; I feel the exact same way when people target parodies as cheap comedies; I think they're fun to write. I really should have known better. Generally, though, I do stay away from romantic story plots. I usually take my romance as a sub-category.

BTW I so do not take Yami no Matsuei seriously. :)

Glad to know that you don't take Yami no Matsuei too seriously. When I feel myself getting too touchy about it, I step back and tell myself, "It's just a story..."

^.^; Anime fans are dead serious. We're freaks. We congregate in numbers to dress as animated characters, argue the best couples, and we don't care. Being able to take a step back to calm yourself down is for the best.

That being said, there are some things I do take seriously, character bashing being one of them. If a person can ease up on their bashing, I'm as cool as a jellybean. Otherwise, I develop tunnel-vision and can not focus right.

Opinions of fictional characters won't really hurt anyone either way, but in terms of life policy, there are pitfalls any way you look at 'truth.I know where you are coming from here. It's common sense not to get worked up over a fictional character. At the same time, it is still about other people knocking *your* opinion. Is there even a good way to state your opinion without insulting the other party?

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